With technology scattering pop culture like never before...

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Very conveniently omitting YTLM, ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, SCOTT PILGRIM, BLANKETS, et al.

 

Throw out JC if you like. But don't ignore the rest.

But, that's just it - I never said that nobody could possibly want modern art. In fact, I happen to own a couple/few dozen Modern pieces by ~15 separate artists (most of which are not on my CAF). And, I'm a fan of a lot of modern comics - mostly indie titles, in fact.

What I actually said was that I think the Modern format is inherently inferior. Again - people may buy YTLM, AS-S, etc., in the only form they exist in, but even you agree that they would be even better if they were more complete representations of the published material. I definitely believe that if they were, they would attract a wider audience - not enough to close the demographic gap we are talking about, but, at the barest minimum, you would co-opt more of the older collectors.

I never made any blanket statements about the desirability of Modern content. In fact, I have already praised much of it as being better than vintage material and even highlighted some of which (e.g., the overall quality of today's indie titles) as being the highest quality we've ever seen.

One can no more point to the top 0.1% of Modern OA as being representative of the whole as you can the top 0.1% of vintage.

I am going to try to shift the conversation a bit. We talked a lot about shifting demographics and their major effect on demand and supply being made available as collectors age out, but what about TOTAL supply of desirable OA?

 

When we look at a basket of published desirable material, what percentage of what was made still exists, sitting neatly in the portfolios of black hole collectors that has not seen the light of day for 20+ years? If most of it is out there, maybe there is more than enough for everybody. However if most of it is lost to the winds, maybe the demand side may never be satiated.

This remains to be seen as those black hole collections (or those smaller "dark matter" collections of onesies and twosies) come to light. As I said earlier, WHAT HAPPENED TO ALL THE POST-1975 ART? (Or whenever the Big Two decided to actively give back art. When was that for Marvel and DC? Can someone clarify?)

Also can over supply ever really occur of the desirable pieces that we know there is low supply of. We know exactly how many KJ pages there are, assuming none have been lost. on the flip side there are potentially thousands of desirable Kirby's out there. Does absolute supply of specific examples play into the future?

I was trying to articulate this point in another thread recently. The differences between a second-run Cockrum and first-run Cockrum may start to soften as that age group divests or dies out.

And further proving my point, look how many people wouldn't mind taking home the "leg" Alex Raymond.

Very conveniently omitting YTLM, ALL-STAR SUPERMAN, SCOTT PILGRIM, BLANKETS, et al.

 

Throw out JC if you like. But don't ignore the rest.

 

But, that's just it - I never said that nobody could possibly want modern art. In fact, I happen to own a couple/few dozen Modern pieces by ~15 separate artists (most of which are not on my CAF). And, I'm a fan of a lot of modern comics - mostly indie titles, in fact.

 

What I actually said was that I think the Modern format is inherently inferior. Again - people may buy YTLM, AS-S, etc., in the only form they exist in, but even you agree that they would be even better if they were more complete representations of the published material. I never made any blanket statements about the desirability of the content. In fact, I have already praised much of it as being better than vintage material and even highlighted some of which (e.g., the overall quality of today's indie titles) as being the highest quality we've ever seen.

 

One can no more point to the top 0.1% of Modern OA as being representative of the whole as you can the top 0.1% of vintage.

Well, the most common criticisms that have been leveled in this thread against modern art are more relevant to Big Two than indie. The issue with word balloons is remedied with an overlay. No different than a vintage page you buy that's missing the word balloons. Want them back on there? Get an overlay made.

Bottom line: Not ALL modern art is from decompressed stories, missing word balloons, blue line, pencil-only, and everything else that's been mentioned. That's the broad brush that's been applied. It's not accurate. And again, even in those cases, people still want it. It's not as big a deal to them as it is to us.

(And we can split hairs all day about JIMMY CORRIGAN being a 2000s title or not, but to just about everyone here, it's modern art. That's the point. Anything that's not GA/SA/BA/CA, is modern art. And there are people who will pay up for it!)

I was trying to articulate this point in another thread recently. The differences between a second-run Cockrum and first-run Cockrum may start to soften as that age group divests or dies out.

I doubt it. Even if you level out the nostalgia, most people would agree that first-run Cockrum art is simply drawn better than second-run. And the art from the earlier issues (and the books themselves) is recognized as being more historic/important, with the better and more memorable storylines. It's not like the premium for earlier issues, first/early appearances, etc. goes away just because the generation who grew up with it dies out.

And further proving my point, look how many people wouldn't mind taking home the "leg" Alex Raymond.

I really don't think that's a generational thing - one of those guys saying he wouldn't mind taking home the A-leg Raymond is tth2, who's a grumpy old man.

FWIW:

http://www.comicsbeat.com/about-12-million-graphic-novels-were-sold-in-bookstores-2016/

And of course, I approve of the art chosen to illustrate the article.

Its no accident.

Its labor turnover.

If you look at marvel/dc, in the 60s they have old, steady hands (kirby, ditko, infantino)

in the late 60s/early 70s they still have a few old hands (romita etc) but also have some fresh blood like adams, steranko, ploog, kaluta, wrightson, BWS, etc

and then by 1975, that new blood has sharply reduced their output and they don't have (with a few exceptions like byrne) people ready to take up the slack.

And so you end up with this:

by the 1980s they've mostly solved their recruitment woes and average quality goes back up.

I've focussed on the artist side because I'm more familiar with it but I suspect the same was also true for the writers.

It's a mug's game, trying to peek into the future. So let me have a turn.

 

There are some really smart people on these boards and I usually agree with most of what they say, but not in this regard. I tend to be cautious regarding the opinions of those collectors who are heavily into GA/SA/BA artwork. They barely acknowledge modern OA, they rarely buy it, so they assume there can't be much interest in the stuff. Moreover, the interest there is must be about to fade because comic sales aren't what they used to be. Right?

 

Sure, but there didn't use to be graphic novels, either. My small town library adds new graphic novels to the shelf every week. Almost all of them are from new series. Brian Hibbs says it's graphic novels that keep his comic stores afloat. Jim Zub writes a terrific comic called Wayward, per issue sales are fairly garbage, but he says the graphic novel numbers allow his artist (Steven Cummings, great work) to focus on the comic for his livelihood. Mr. Cummings hasn't been able to do that in the past.

 

Unlike floppies, graphic novels don't get slabbed, bagged, or boarded. They're read and re-read, and a new collector is born every day. I know there's an audience for modern comics and its artwork; it's just not in plain sight. And, yeah, all of the old stories have been published as graphic novels, too, but it's the new collections that are ending up on my library's shelves.

 

Not that modern comics are as necessarily dead as advertised, either. Go to the Modern Comic Section on the Message Boards, you'll usually find an audience of viewers that's bigger in number than the comic boards for GA/SA/BA. Almost always.

 

I appreciate modern OA, and it's at the heart of my collection, even if it doesn't get much respect here. I think the artwork of the past decade is often better drawn than the standard-issue art of years ago and the story lines are frequently more intriguing. The more popular artists keep bumping their prices up and up...hardly a sign of a diminishing interest.

 

However, if you're only talking investment, buy the single best original Kirby page you can find. Chances are, the family won't sue you.

It's not just graphic novels. All the Digital purveyors have years of back issues. For example, Marvel is publishing stuff from the Golden Age on Marvel Unlimited right now, let alone the stuff from the early 2000s.

I agree with the stratification argument. There will always be a market for the top end stuff. But, you will see values become stratified. I think some of the current stuff (Trimpe IH pages, to take one example) are vastly overpriced for what they are going to be in a few years.

Omg thank you. It's hard to break past the "this 70s hack (artist or writer) was a genius because I am familiar with him mindset".

 

Lots of high value art isn't that great when you strip away context so discussing the art's collectibility solely on its artistic merits or storytelling style misses the point.

Really deserving of a whole different thread, but yeah the 70s decade of comics and art, mostly sucked @ss. It's only nostalgia for those unlucky enough to be a young teen in those years that props the art up today (of course painting with a big brush here...there are probably a handful of exceptions).

 

Agreed. Every era had a good % of unreadable material, but I always thought the 70's stuff contained a far higher % of it.

70's Marvel stuff, in particular, had a lot of experimentation going on. That's why 70's marvel comics are so hot right now. This is the era of Starlin's Captain Marvel and Warlock, Warewolf by night, Conan, the creation of Ghost Rider, Wolverine and Moon Knight, the introduction of the New X-Men, the Death of Gwen Stacy, etc.

Later you had titles like Nova, that fantastic Micronauts book (with highly sought after Michael Golden OA pages), Rom, etc.

This was my wheelhouse.

The problems with Marvel in the 70's were inconsistent output, that required lots of reprint books, and filler issues, and missed deadlines, etc.

Jim Shooter, usually portrayed as a villain, came in and cleaned all that up and got the trains to run on time, and made the place profitable.

70's Marvel stuff, in particular, had a lot of experimentation going on. That's why 70's marvel comics are so hot right now. This is the era of Starlin's Captain Marvel and Warlock, Warewolf by night, Conan, the creation of Ghost Rider, Wolverine and Moon Knight, the introduction of the New X-Men, the Death of Gwen Stacy, etc.

 

Later you had titles like Nova, that fantastic Micronauts book (with highly sought after Michael Golden OA pages), Rom, etc.

I think 1970-75 was among the most fertile creative periods at Marvel. Tons of great storylines (e.g., The Kree-Skrull War, cosmic Starlin, Death of Gwen Stacy/Green Goblin, Red Nails, etc.) and new characters (Wolverine, new X-Men, Werewolf by Night, Conan, Red Sonja, Punisher, Blade, Moon Knight, Shang-Chi, Dracula, etc.) were introduced during this period, while many talented creators (Starlin, Gerber, Englehart, etc.) joined the Bullpen during these years.

When people here say that the '70s sucked for comics, I have to believe they mean 1976-1979, because 1970-75 rocked! And not just at Marvel - Batman was revitalized and recovered from the hangover from the campy TV show over at DC, GL/GA ushered in a new realism, there was Wrightson Swamp Thing, Warren was in its prime and comic magazines across the various publishers were never bigger or better...

I'd rank my personal favorite 5-year periods in comics (across all publishers) since the release of FF #1 in this order (note that I am not really a fan of the early Silver Age or the Golden Age outside of the EC titles - I respect it tremendously, but it's not my bag when it comes to reading comics):

1. 1981-1985

2. 1971-1975

3. 1986-1990

4. 1966-1970

5. 2001-2005

6. 2011-2016

7. 1976-1980

8. 1961-1965

9. 1996-2000

10.1991-1995

 

Well, the most common criticisms that have been leveled in this thread against modern art are more relevant to Big Two than indie. The issue with word balloons is remedied with an overlay. No different than a vintage page you buy that's missing the word balloons. Want them back on there? Get an overlay made.

 

up for it!)

Felix, as (I believe) a successful modern art rep, do you think that linking-up with someone capable of providing overlays of the missing text elements of caption/speech balloon material, you could offer an additional option (at a suitable mark-up in price) of selling such art rendered complete via overlays?

I'm inclined to believe this idea could be worth exploring?

Just a suggestion that might save potentially interested buyers the hassle of getting this done themselves post-purchase.

70's Marvel stuff, in particular, had a lot of experimentation going on. That's why 70's marvel comics are so hot right now. This is the era of Starlin's Captain Marvel and Warlock, Warewolf by night, Conan, the creation of Ghost Rider, Wolverine and Moon Knight, the introduction of the New X-Men, the Death of Gwen Stacy, etc.

 

Later you had titles like Nova, that fantastic Micronauts book (with highly sought after Michael Golden OA pages), Rom, etc.

 

I think 1970-75 was among the most fertile creative periods at Marvel. Tons of great storylines (e.g., The Kree-Skrull War, cosmic Starlin, Death of Gwen Stacy/Green Goblin, Red Nails, etc.) and new characters (Wolverine, new X-Men, Werewolf by Night, Conan, Red Sonja, Punisher, Blade, Moon Knight, Shang-Chi, Dracula, etc.) were introduced during this period, while many talented creators (Starlin, Gerber, Englehart, etc.) joined the Bullpen during these years.

 

When people here say that the '70s sucked for comics, I have to believe they mean primarily 1976-1979, because 1970-75 rocked! And not just at Marvel - Batman was revitalized and recovered from the hangover from the campy TV show over at DC, GL/GA ushered in a new realism, Warren was in its prime and comic magazines across the various publishers were never bigger or better...

 

I'd rank my personal favorite 5-year periods in comics (across all publishers) since the release of FF #1 in this order (note that I am not really a fan of the early Silver Age or the Golden Age outside of the EC titles - I respect it tremendously, but it's not my bag when it comes to reading comics):

 

1. 1981-1985

2. 1971-1975

3. 1986-1990

4. 1966-1970

5. 2001-2005

6. 2011-2016

7. 1976-1980

8. 1961-1965

9. 1996-2000

10.1991-1995

I know this is personal favorite list, but 1976 to 1980 (probably the worst 5 year creative period ever - except for the X-Men, the short Eng.- Rogers Detective run, HTD, and Cerebus, it was a wasteland ) beats out 1961 to 1965 ??

Anyway, my personal favorites:

1. 1965 to 1969

2. 1970 to 1974

3. 1960 to 1964

4. 1985 to 1989

5. 1950 to 1954

6. 1940 to 1944

7. 1980 to 1984

8. 1935 to 1939

9. 1955 to 1959

10.1976 to 1980

I know this is personal favorite list, but 1976 to 1980 (probably the worst 5 year creative period ever - except for the X-Men, the short Eng.- Rogers Detective run, HTD, and Cerebus, it was a wasteland ) beats out 1961 to 1965 ??

1961 to 1965 is obviously at/near the top of the list in terms of greatness/importance. But, in terms of what I like to read...it's the later material that isn't just geared towards young kids. I rarely read books from pre-1968 anymore, and generally prefer to read comics from the first half of the '70s, the '80s and post-2000. I respect the creativity and historic value of 1961-65 books tremendously (Marvel, anyway - early Silver Age DC is unreadable for me), but, it's just not my bag. That said, maybe I'd put 1961-65 just above 1976-80...I just tend to read more from the latter period than the former.

Also, with a few notable exceptions that made up a minuscule % of the ridiculous # of horrifically bad comics during the decade, the '90s were the absolute worst period in terms of overall quality. 1976-1980 at least had those examples you mentioned, plus the intro of Miller on DD, Red Sonja's solo series (a personal fave of mine), and, though the quality of all these titles declined from the preceding years, there was still pre-#100 Conan, Master of Kung Fu, Tomb of Dracula, Vampirella, etc. which I enjoyed. Definitely a lot better than, say, 1993 to 1997 if you ask me.

 

Well, the most common criticisms that have been leveled in this thread against modern art are more relevant to Big Two than indie. The issue with word balloons is remedied with an overlay. No different than a vintage page you buy that's missing the word balloons. Want them back on there? Get an overlay made.

 

up for it!)

 

Felix, as (I believe) a successful modern art rep, do you think that linking-up with someone capable of providing overlays of the missing text elements of caption/speech balloon material, you could offer an additional option (at a suitable mark-up in price) of selling such art rendered complete via overlays?

 

I'm inclined to believe this idea could be worth exploring?

 

Just a suggestion that might save potentially interested buyers the hassle of getting this done themselves post-purchase.

Thanks Terry!

For me, there's just no demand for overlays. I haven't had a SINGLE buyer request it. It's just not a big deal. Even for someone like me, who's used to OA with word balloons, I haven't bothered getting any overlays done for the modern art in my collection. I've simply gotten used to it. For others, especially younger and/or new collectors, they either don't know the difference or they don't care.

Obviously, there are those for whom word balloons are very important. In those cases, there are numerous people who can provide that service. For the overall market of new art, though, it's pretty much a non-issue.

I don't view the period of 1976-1980 as so lackluster or lacking in creativity or similar negative, at least in titles I read.

While some of the Iron Man stories/issues were subpar, a number were not and the end of the period marks the beginning of the Michelinie/Romita/Layton run on Iron Man, including Demon in a Bottle. Also in that period there are a number of great Avengers issues/stories (Ultron, Korvac, Squadron Supreme, etc.), including prime Perez/Marcos.

Yes, there's no question the very late 70s is a wonderful time for Iron Man, Daredevil, etc. No one is suggesting that there aren't gems in every single five period stretch. But taken as a whole, that period is terrible. It just is.

Certainly 1978-1983 or so is the single best stretch for Iron Man

On 1/14/2017 at 9:36 PM, delekkerste said:

 

Wasn't that the ginormous Civil War II piece that was literally used for 8 covers? I'm not saying that it's not impressive that someone spent $20K for a piece of Modern OA, but, it's not like we're talking about a one cover done on an 11x17" board, right? I mean, a single Kim Jung Gi cover sold at Heritage for more than $10K last year. When I first heard about the $20K sale a while back, my first reaction was, "TOO CHEAP!!!"

 

Plus, I think KJG is a unique animal and is not wholly comparable to other modern comic artists. I know a couple of big vintage guys who have strong examples of his work, and I know the piece at Heritage was sold out of a major vintage BSD's collection. I recall one of his pieces did pretty well at a Christie's European auction within the past couple of years as well. Lots of transcendent appeal with that guy's work I think, not just limited to guys who collect modern OA.

That piece is on YouTube's Marvel Entertainment Channel as a behind-the-scene featurette to celebrate Marvel's Civil War II  summer event.

below is a link to a conversation with Kim Jung Gi at CTN

http://tv.creativetalentnetwork.com/a-conversation-with-kim-jung-gi

42 minutes ago, L.W. said:

That piece is on YouTube's Marvel Entertainment Channel as a behind-the-scene featurette to celebrate Marvel's Civil War II  summer event.

 

below is a link to a conversation with Kim Jung Gi at CTN

http://tv.creativetalentnetwork.com/a-conversation-with-kim-jung-gi

Every time I see a video of him producing some work I have the same thought - he draws like people that know nothing about drawing imagine people must draw. 

12 hours ago, SquareChaos said:

 

Every time I see a video of him producing some work I have the same thought - he draws like people that know nothing about drawing imagine people must draw. 

Hah! I bet.

KJG always makes me think of that guy that draws cityscapes from memory based on a photo he sees once. Ony with KJG it's like he imagines the scene and then attacks it that same way.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/04/autism-artist-stephen-wiltshire-cities-genius/

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 3:43 PM, Nexus said:

FWIW:

 

http://www.comicsbeat.com/about-12-million-graphic-novels-were-sold-in-bookstores-2016/

 

And of course, I approve of the art chosen to illustrate the article.

This goes to my point in an earlier thread, people are consuming this stuff in a much different way than previously. 12 Million graphic novels sold, doesn't include all the people who read them online, or in libraries, or borrow them, etc. When a new film comes out, people buy the graphic novel to check out the source material.

It's only a matter of connecting these readers to the OA world, and you will see an influx of some percentage of them becoming collectors.

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 4:31 PM, PhilipB2k17 said:

 

It's not just graphic novels. All the Digital purveyors have years of back issues. For example, Marvel is publishing stuff from the Golden Age on Marvel Unlimited right now, let alone the stuff from the early 2000s.

 

I agree with the stratification argument. There will always be a market for the top end stuff. But, you will see values become stratified. I think some of the current stuff (Trimpe IH pages, to take one example) are vastly overpriced for what they are going to be in a few years.

 

 

Hell, I think run of the mill Romita Sr Spidey Pages are vastly overpriced.