• When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.

1:10, 1:25, 1:50, 1:100 are DISTRIBUTION numbers, not PRINT RUN numbers.
0

301 posts in this topic

RMA is so concerned about how big or small a print run is, i'm starting to think he's losing sleep over it, truth is about print runs is that unless a few million are printed, it really doesn't matter as long as the demand is there. Books are everywhere, Any book can be "rare" doesn't mean someone will buy it. I have several hard to find books in my collection, only one that wanted them is me.

 

I suspect you don't read much of what people post. "TL:DR" and all that. Your points are completely valid; but that's not what this discussion is about, and they don't render the discussion moot.

 

And why is it me that is "so concerned"...? After all, I'm not the one going around making claims about print runs that no one except the publishers and the printers could possibly know...

 

But, then, I'm not buying books for a $1, slabbing them, and then selling them for 10x what I paid, either....

 

:whistle:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RMA is so concerned about how big or small a print run is, i'm starting to think he's losing sleep over it, truth is about print runs is that unless a few million are printed, it really doesn't matter as long as the demand is there. Books are everywhere, Any book can be "rare" doesn't mean someone will buy it. I have several hard to find books in my collection, only one that wanted them is me.

 

I suspect you don't read much of what people post. "TL:DR" and all that. Your points are completely valid; but that's not what this discussion is about, and they don't render the discussion moot.

 

And why is it me that is "so concerned"...? After all, I'm not the one going around making claims about print runs that no one except the publishers and the printers could possibly know...

 

But, then, I'm not buying books for a $1, slabbing them, and then selling them for 10x what I paid, either....

 

:whistle:

 

Pretty much. I have books that are so rare nobody but a few enthusiasts know about them, and even they don't want them lol

 

I like talking about my books cause they're my books.

 

Now, I have some windmills to attack....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RMA is so concerned about how big or small a print run is, i'm starting to think he's losing sleep over it, truth is about print runs is that unless a few million are printed, it really doesn't matter as long as the demand is there. Books are everywhere, Any book can be "rare" doesn't mean someone will buy it. I have several hard to find books in my collection, only one that wanted them is me.

 

I suspect you don't read much of what people post. "TL:DR" and all that. Your points are completely valid; but that's not what this discussion is about, and they don't render the discussion moot.

 

And why is it me that is "so concerned"...? After all, I'm not the one going around making claims about print runs that no one except the publishers and the printers could possibly know...

 

But, then, I'm not buying books for a $1, slabbing them, and then selling them for 10x what I paid, either....

 

:whistle:

Wow, an openly visible post!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does marvel require a minimum print run job for incentive variants? Does this apply to store and con variants?

 

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500.

 

For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies).

 

-J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does marvel require a minimum print run job for incentive variants? Does this apply to store and con variants?

 

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500.

 

For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies).

 

-J.

 

500 if there is another 3k ordered. The new ratio you are seeing is 3k color, 1.5 sketch, 500 other. You can't just order 500.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the topics that has come up in this discussion is the idea that Marvel would NEVER print more copies of a book than they need

 

AND

 

They print up to the 'case pack'

 

Lets' look at some facts that show both of these to be questionable ideas.

 

Comichron's numbers for the Amazing Spider-man in 2005 show:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 150,833 (or 603.33 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 102,377 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,187

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 35,241 or 23.4% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

 

In 2008, they appear to have tried to tighten it up a bit:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 125,019 (or 500.76 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 95,141 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,807

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 17,515 or 14% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

These are from Marvel's own Statement of Ownership official forms, required by law.

And they show clearly that:

A) Marvel has most definitely printed more copies of a comic than they need and

B) They don't seem to be rounding up to any even case pack amount.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the topics that has come up in this discussion is the idea that Marvel would NEVER print more copies of a book than they need

 

AND

 

They print up to the 'case pack'

 

Lets' look at some facts that show both of these to be questionable ideas.

 

Comichron's numbers for the Amazing Spider-man in 2005 show:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 150,833 (or 603.33 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 102,377 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,187

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 35,241 or 23.4% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

 

In 2008, they appear to have tried to tighten it up a bit:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 125,019 (or 500.76 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 95,141 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,807

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 17,515 or 14% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

These are from Marvel's own Statement of Ownership official forms, required by law.

And they show clearly that:

A) Marvel has most definitely printed more copies of a comic than they need and

B) They don't seem to be rounding up to any even case pack amount.

 

Ignoring the larger argument for the moment, it's my understanding that incentives are earned off of initial orders. Is that correct? If so, no incentive variants need be available to cover reorders, while regular copies would be, so printing in excess of the advanced orders makes sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does marvel require a minimum print run job for incentive variants? Does this apply to store and con variants?

 

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500.

 

For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies).

 

-J.

 

500 if there is another 3k ordered. The new ratio you are seeing is 3k color, 1.5 sketch, 500 other. You can't just order 500.

 

So you're saying 500 Is the minimum for a book , with the caveat that they order at least 4500 "other" copies of the issue? That still means that the "minimum" for a particular variant of the book they could order is still 500- hence the recent 500-copy "secret variant" craze.

 

(I do know that retailers only needed to order at least 500 copies (two case packs) of their store exclusive for the ASM 666 event as well:

 

http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/732?articleID=109267 - notice the specific reference of only a "5% over print" for damages toward the bottom. Once again supporting the statements of knowledgeable boardies who have stated that this is about all a publisher will produce above actual orders to cover waste, with regards to incentive variants).

 

-J.

Edited by Jaydogrules
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does marvel require a minimum print run job for incentive variants? Does this apply to store and con variants?

 

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500.

 

For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies).

 

-J.

 

500 if there is another 3k ordered. The new ratio you are seeing is 3k color, 1.5 sketch, 500 other. You can't just order 500.

 

So you're saying 500 Is the minimum for a book , with the caveat that they order at least 4500 "other" copies of the issue? That still means that the "minimum" for a particular variant of the book they could order is still 500- hence the recent 500-copy "secret variant" craze.

 

(I do know that retailers only needed to order at least 500 copies (two case packs) of their store exclusive for the ASM 666 event as well:

 

http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/732?articleID=109267 - notice the specific reference of only a "5% over print" for damages toward the bottom. Once again supporting the statements of knowledgeable boardies who have stated that this is about all a publisher will produce above actual orders to cover waste, with regards to incentive variants).

 

-J.

 

I just showed you PROOF of where they ordered MORE than 5% over.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the topics that has come up in this discussion is the idea that Marvel would NEVER print more copies of a book than they need

 

AND

 

They print up to the 'case pack'

 

Lets' look at some facts that show both of these to be questionable ideas.

 

Comichron's numbers for the Amazing Spider-man in 2005 show:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 150,833 (or 603.33 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 102,377 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,187

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 35,241 or 23.4% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

 

In 2008, they appear to have tried to tighten it up a bit:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 125,019 (or 500.76 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 95,141 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,807

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 17,515 or 14% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

These are from Marvel's own Statement of Ownership official forms, required by law.

And they show clearly that:

A) Marvel has most definitely printed more copies of a comic than they need and

B) They don't seem to be rounding up to any even case pack amount.

 

Ignoring the larger argument for the moment, it's my understanding that incentives are earned off of initial orders. Is that correct? If so, no incentive variants need be available to cover reorders, while regular copies would be, so printing in excess of the advanced orders makes sense.

 

If no extra copies are needed then why are their extra copies of the variants after the fact? Up to TWO YEARS after the fact.

 

And the case pack argument doesn't hold, because there are two instances right there where the print numbers says they didn't order to case pack.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the topics that has come up in this discussion is the idea that Marvel would NEVER print more copies of a book than they need

 

AND

 

They print up to the 'case pack'

 

Lets' look at some facts that show both of these to be questionable ideas.

 

Comichron's numbers for the Amazing Spider-man in 2005 show:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 150,833 (or 603.33 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 102,377 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,187

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 35,241 or 23.4% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

 

In 2008, they appear to have tried to tighten it up a bit:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 125,019 (or 500.76 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 95,141 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,807

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 17,515 or 14% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

These are from Marvel's own Statement of Ownership official forms, required by law.

And they show clearly that:

A) Marvel has most definitely printed more copies of a comic than they need and

B) They don't seem to be rounding up to any even case pack amount.

 

Ignoring the larger argument for the moment, it's my understanding that incentives are earned off of initial orders. Is that correct? If so, no incentive variants need be available to cover reorders, while regular copies would be, so printing in excess of the advanced orders makes sense.

 

If no extra copies are needed then why are their extra copies of the variants after the fact? Up to TWO YEARS after the fact.

 

And the case pack argument doesn't hold, because there are two instances right there where the print numbers says they didn't order to case pack.

That's why I called out the difference between a regular edition and a variant. Yes, regular books are usually printed in quantities exceeding more than the amounted needed to fill orders, because those copies are used to fill reorders. Apples and oranges.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anybody debating that they print more than ordered to cover for damages?

 

I think majority understands that they print more than ordered to cover damages. Which is understandable. How much more is the question.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does marvel require a minimum print run job for incentive variants? Does this apply to store and con variants?

 

The minimum I've seen for store and convention exclusives is 500.

 

For their own variants (ratio, or otherwise ) they can print as few as they want, but realistically they wouldn't print less than a case pack (up to 250 copies).

 

-J.

 

500 if there is another 3k ordered. The new ratio you are seeing is 3k color, 1.5 sketch, 500 other. You can't just order 500.

 

Ah, This explains all the variants that have been coming out with 3 different covers. I.E. JSC Harley Little Black Book,renew your vows2,, Art Germ's Legacy harley Quinn, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anybody debating that they print more than ordered to cover for damages?

 

I think majority understands that they print more than ordered to cover damages. Which is understandable. How much more is the question.

 

As it applies to "incentive" variants, based on the link I posted above, the answer looks to be 5%.

 

As for regular covers, according to multiple boardies, it is in the 5-10% range. Whatever they do above that for re-orders looks to vary by another potential 5-10% (at least from the data ChuckGower posted from ten years ago).

 

Either way, all of this is still based on how many copies of a book are actually ordered. None of these numbers exist in a vacuum.

 

-J.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anybody debating that they print more than ordered to cover for damages?

 

I think majority understands that they print more than ordered to cover damages. Which is understandable. How much more is the question.

 

Variables that may or may not go into an incentive ratio print run:

 

 

1. How many were ordered as incentives by US distributors?

2. How many were ordered by International distributors?

3. How many were ordered to give to staff or creators?

4. How many were ordered for additional promotions?

5. How many were ordered for special events like a board meeting or company picnic, etc.?

6. What about other discount threshholds, which may need to be used in combination with other printing thressholds for other comics?

7. How much is printed for overrages? (and how much is used?)

8. How much is printed to get to the nearest 'case' or 'pallet'

 

 

And how many variables are there in anyone one of those variables, which might depend on comic events, time of year, contracts with creators, marketing strategy, volume, special discounts offered by printer/publishers, among a million other things?

 

It's too many reasonable to make a reasonable, defensible guess. To say you can use the comichron distribution to guess the incentive totals within +/- 25% at around 50%-60% of the time would already be pretty much useless. But its even more useless if YOU'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO CHECK YOUR NUMBERS TO BEGIN WITH.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is anybody debating that they print more than ordered to cover for damages?

 

I think majority understands that they print more than ordered to cover damages. Which is understandable. How much more is the question.

 

As it applies to "incentive" variants, based on the link I posted above, the answer looks to be 5%.

 

As for regular covers, according to multiple boardies, it is in the 5-10% range. Whatever they do above that for re-orders looks to vary by another potential 5-10% (at least from the data ChuckGower posted from ten years ago).

 

Either way, all of this is still based on how many copies of a book are actually ordered. None of these numbers exist in a vacuum.

 

-J.

 

Can we get a list, preferably with links to the relevant posts, of who these "multiple boardies" are and what they have said? "Multiple boardies" sounds awesome as a completely vague support for whatever you want it to mean, but having some idea of who these "multiple boardies" are and what their knowledge base on print runs is would be really useful.

 

If you can't/won't produce this, please stop citing these unnamed "multiple boardies" as support. 2c

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the topics that has come up in this discussion is the idea that Marvel would NEVER print more copies of a book than they need

 

AND

 

They print up to the 'case pack'

 

Lets' look at some facts that show both of these to be questionable ideas.

 

Comichron's numbers for the Amazing Spider-man in 2005 show:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 150,833 (or 603.33 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 102,377 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,187

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 35,241 or 23.4% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

 

In 2008, they appear to have tried to tighten it up a bit:

TOTAL # of copies printed (avg): 125,019 (or 500.76 CASES, an uneven case amount!!!)

Sales thru Dealers: 95,141 (Also an uneven case count)

Subscription Sales: 10,807

Copies not distributed (RETURNS): 17,515 or 14% MORE THAN THEY NEEDED!

 

These are from Marvel's own Statement of Ownership official forms, required by law.

And they show clearly that:

A) Marvel has most definitely printed more copies of a comic than they need and

B) They don't seem to be rounding up to any even case pack amount.

 

Ignoring the larger argument for the moment, it's my understanding that incentives are earned off of initial orders. Is that correct? If so, no incentive variants need be available to cover reorders, while regular copies would be, so printing in excess of the advanced orders makes sense.

 

If no extra copies are needed then why are their extra copies of the variants after the fact? Up to TWO YEARS after the fact.

 

And the case pack argument doesn't hold, because there are two instances right there where the print numbers says they didn't order to case pack.

That's why I called out the difference between a regular edition and a variant. Yes, regular books are usually printed in quantities exceeding more than the amounted needed to fill orders, because those copies are used to fill reorders. Apples and oranges.

 

They're printing FAR more than they need for reorders. Look at the RETURN numbers.

Why the over printing for books they don't need?

If they're so concerned about printing just what they need, how can they be off by as LOW as 17,000 comics?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
0