1:10, 1:25, 1:50, 1:100 are DISTRIBUTION numbers, not PRINT RUN numbers.

0

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

 

 

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

 

That sure is a huge "if," isn't it?

 

But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all.

Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off

A. How does a blanket 10% reduction in their estimate reflect how many were actually ordered and/or actually sold? They seem to be guessing.

B. How does that 10% reduction in Comichron's estimate affect how many variants are actually printed?

C. How many layers of guesses does this mean we have to use now?

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

 

 

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

 

That sure is a huge "if," isn't it?

 

But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all.

Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off

 

A. How does a blanket 10% reduction in their estimate reflect how many were actually ordered and/or actually sold? They seem to be guessing.

 

B. How does that 10% reduction in Comichron's estimate affect how many variants are actually printed?

 

C. How many layers of guesses does this mean we have to use now?

The easiest answer to answer to all three questions is : "N/A" - the point about returnability on the Rebirth titles was a smokescreen and is irrelevant to this discussion of ratio variants.

-J.

 

Allow me to untangle Chuck Gower's labored word spaghetti for you then.

 

Fact: Chuck Gower is attempting to qualify and walk back his his own earlier posts and statements on the issue, because he is one of the few retailers on the boards who is notoriously and consistently anti-variant.

Jay's first version of a fact: WRONG.

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean you know what you're talking about. Obviously.

You can't tell ME what I meant in what I said. Are you delusional?

Me stating Marvel's position on something, isn't agreeing it's true.

If Marvel says, all of their books are printed with fairy dust in the ink, and I repeat it as a way of mocking them, that's not me agreeing with it.

God, you're that desperate to try and make a point, just to keep people in the dark so you can rip them off?

Yet his original post I linked earlier accurately summarized Marvel and Diamond 's public position (regardless of whether or not Chuck Gower thinks they are "lying". Hey, there's that blasted conspiracy theory again ).

It's not a conspiracy if it's actually happened more than once. Marvel has tried to fan the flames of controversy with this a few times now when they've been criticized for variant sales at Diamond. That's fact.

But you'd prefer to keep this quiet so you can rip off the uneducated.

Fact: The only "Star Wars variants" that Chuck Gower mentions with any specificity are the Action Figure books, and those were not ratio variants, so that is irrelevant to the conversation.

Jay's second version of a fact: WRONG.

Here's the part of the sale:

ALL INCENTIVE VARIANTS.

The lengths you will go to, to try and deceive people. It's shameful.

Fact: The one, single book that Chuck Gower is attempting to prove his alleged conspiracy with now (the ratio book that he claims he was able to order 30 copies of) is the Original Sin #1 1:25.

Jay's third version of a fact: WRONG.

I've ordered HUNDREDS of variants, of the THOUSANDS that Diamond has made available, some more than TWO YEARS after they came out, as has the 3000 plus retail accounts that Diamond has. Your argument holds no ground.

Original Sin was a large event from 2014, the first issue was the top seller for the month with nearly 150,000 copies ordered, and it alone had a dozen variants , only two of which were ratio (a 1:25 and a 1:50). With that in mind, it's not hard to fathom why there would be unclaimed/unordered overages on a 1:25.

But that proves my point. Marvel prints MORE copies than what they need. And it's not just on large event books, but on ALL incentive books, because ALL incentive books are available as a part of Diamond's sell off sales. One of the last ones they had, I got personal copies of incentive variants for character titles I like (Patsy Walker aka Hellcat was one) that I wasn't able to order initially. You think THAT book was a large event, you're reaching for straws in your attempt to DECEIVE and MANIPULATE people.

That's right I bought VARIANTS for ME. Because I COLLECT them. You try and say I HATE variants, but once again, you're WRONG.

You should see my Archie Comics Variant collection. HUGE.

However The fact that Chuck Gower was able to order 30 copies of it only proves that there were at least 30 unneeded copies of that book.

Correct. It proves my point exactly.

Even if Chuck Gower ordered 30 copies, 15 other guys ordered 10, 15 more retailers ordered 2, and 35 others wanted one copy each, that would still be enough to account for the remnants of one case pack.

Which you have absolutely NO proof of, whatsoever. There is NOTHING that you have to VERIFY this information. And since case size VARIES depending on the thickness of the book, it makes no sense either. YOU are the one simply making up information, in order to try and shoehorn your theory. And doing so simply to try and DECEIVE and MANIPULATE others.

Really, it's disgraceful.

Mr. Gower's attempts to extrapolate that one book out into the entire variant market and all variants ever printed by implying that publishers do in fact wildly and deliberately over print books that no one ordered (despite public statements from at least one publisher to the contrary) is his own preposterous conspiracy theorizing again.

Uh, it's not the only book. I've actually listed a variant order form from Diamond here before. Do you not remember this?

For those who don't, here it is again:

That's a LOT more than one book.

Fact: Chuck Gower , again attempting to use another extreme , massive event (e.g. Star Wars launch, Original Sin launch, etc.) to prove his point , now brings up the massive DC Rebirth launch

Jay's fourth version of a fact: WRONG.

First of all the list above proves, it's not an extreme event this happens on, as I'm sure most would agree that the ALL NEW ALL DIFFERENT AVENGERS #3 1:10 HEMBECK VAR, was hardly a major event. Or the ALL NEW CAPTAIN AMERICA #6 1:15 NOWLAN AVENGERS VAR was NOT a major event.

Was ALL NEW HAWKEYE #3 1:25 WU VAR a major event?

Nope, didn't think so.

I could go on, but schooling someone this misinformed, is somewhat tiresome. It's like trying to explain math to a dog.

If it weren't for the FACT that he's trying to purposely DECEIVE and MANIPULATE the uninformed, for his OWN purposes, I wouldn't even bother.

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

Your reading comprehension is either very poor, or your attempt to manipulate what I clearly stated is yet another act of DECEIT and MANIPULATION.

My comments about Rebirth were made in regards to how publishers PRINT, and the overages they clearly make.

DC is so secretive about the print runs, they send the physical copies of the books to Diamond themselves.

Your credibility here is zilch, other than a handful of people who are also trying to deceive the uneducated, simply to try and sell drek for profit.

Disgusting.

What was that RMA said about being entitled to your own opinion , but not your own facts ?

-J.

None of your facts hold up. You've been schooled, kid. You have nothing.

Mic drop

Chuck, you really are like a broken record.

Your bizarrely hostile and vitriolic style of posting aside, you may want to double check your "facts" again.

First, none of the Action Figure or Blanks that you copy and pasted from the "Star Wars Variant Sale" from a year ago above were ratio based. Yes, they are "variants", but they are not ratio variants. I notice you like to try to bleed the two together to try to prove your points, but doing so only makes all of your arguments look like red herrings. So that automatically makes 12 of the 38 books (32%) irrelevant to this conversation.

Secondly, another unique 16 of the 38 (42%) are event, #1 issues. How, or why event-based books will at times have a greater likelihood of unclaimed overages has already been exaplained to you (and the point further supported by the fact that nearly half of the books on the list are "#1" issues).

Evidently realizing this point, I notice that you then re-post the variant sale from, what was it, four years ago(?), and then cherry pick out a handful of drekky ratio variants there (out of the ~225 variants listed, most of which were not incentive based) to try to show that, no, not "all" of the offered variants are event and/or Star Wars based.

Okay, fair enough. However, how or why this too happens has already been explained to you, but I'll say it one more time for you- Given the fact that the books do have 5-10% printed above actual orders to account for the possibility of damages, rounded up to the nearest case pack, YES, there will be excess inventory on rare occasion that can be liquidated. Particularly on variants, much like the ones on that list, that generated little retailer interest upon their initial offering.

Your problem (and this is where your overly biased and negative opinions cloud your judgement), is that you attribute these rare and occasional overages to a vast publisher conspiracy, encompassing all variants, all the time, rather than to what it actually is- the inexact nature of the publishing business.

But I'll throw out a real world apples to apples comparison for you that should fully and finally highlight the folly at the mere suggestion (that you continue to try to make) that publishers routinely over-print all of their books, with no regard to the FOC or actual orders placed:

You are a retailer, right? Do you regularly order 200 copies of a title that only has a 25 customer pull list and only averages 40 copies sold a month? Would it make about as much sense for you to do that as it would for a publisher to print 75,000 copies of a book that only received 30,000 orders? or 2000 copies of a ratio variant when only 250 shops qualified and ordered the book? Isn't this, in fact, why you are such a big proponent of returnability to publishers in the first place? Why do you think publishers are in such a hurry to print waste, while you are (obviously) in no hurry to order it, and want to be able to send it back even, if your orders should happen to be even marginally off for the month? Food for thought.

Speaking of DC's rebirth returnability, I noticed that you completely glossed over the smokescreen and irrelevance of even bringing that up as it pertains to Comichron and this discussion of ratio variants, so there's no need to discuss that any further.

But I do find it odd, that, in spite of the fact of how many times that you like to say that I am "WRONG" (in all caps) about something, and trying to "DECEIVE" (also in all caps) people, you did not actually say what I am "wrong" about.

Was I "wrong" about the one ratio variant you first mentioned being the Original Sin #1 event book?

Nope.

Was I "wrong" about the publishers printing up to a case pack?

Nope. You yourself agree and further stated that case pack sizes vary based on (among other things) the thickness of the book, and you are right about that(!) They range from about 125 (or 150)-250, in increments of 25.

Was I "wrong" about Rebirth and DC's returnabiliy, and how Comichron being a moot point to this discussion, since Rebirth did not have any ratio variants?

Nope.

Was I "wrong" about the vast majority of the few ratio variants (as demonstrated by your cut and paste) being offered on the secondary market being either "event" books (Star Wars), or a "#1"?

Nope.

You can stomp your feet and shout in all caps, raising your fist to the sky in frustration all you want. But at the end of the day, the entire crux of your statements and opinions are premised on nothing more than the belief in a publisher conspiracy that defies not only standard publishing conventions, but common sense.

But you are certainly entitled to believe in whatever you want to believe in, no matter how remote or far-fetched or dare I say lunatic (?), that belief is.

-J.

Chuck, you really are like a broken record.

 

Your bizarrely hostile and vitriolic style of posting aside, you may want to double check your "facts" again.

 

First, none of the Action Figure or Blanks that you copy and pasted from the "Star Wars Variant Sale" from a year ago above were ratio based. Yes, they are "variants", but they are not ratio variants. I notice you like to try to bleed the two together to try to prove your points, but doing so only makes all of your arguments look like red herrings. So that automatically makes 12 of the 38 of the books (32%) irrelevant to this conversation.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.

DARTH VADER #1 MOVIE VAR is a 1:15

JOURNEY STAR WARS FASE #1 (OF 4) HYPERSPACE VAR is a 1:20

JOURNEY STAR WARS FASE #1 (OF 4) MOVIE VAR is a 1:25

JOURNEY STAR WARS FASE #2 (OF 4) ANKA VAR is a 1: 25

JOURNEY STAR WARS FASE #2 (OF 4) MOVIE VAR is a 1:25

JOURNEY STAR WARS FASE #3 (OF 4) DEODATO VAR is a 1: 25

6 of the first 10 are ratio variants!!!!! and 50% of the list is a ratio variant.

Secondly, another unique 16 of the 38 (42%) are event, #1 issues. How, or why event-based books will at times have a greater likelihood of unclaimed overages has already been exaplained to you (and the point further supported by the fact that nearly half of the books on the list are "#1" issues).

MEANING, that 58% ARE NOT. Yet they still have overages. Thanks for proving my point yet again.

Evidently realizing this point, I notice that you then re-post the variant sale from, what was it, four years ago(?), and then cherry pick out a handful of drekky ratio variants there (out of the ~225 variants listed, most of which were not incentive based) to try to show that, no, not "all" of the offered variants are event and/or Star Wars based.

Which sale? The Star Wars sale from December 2015 (10 months ago) or the huge sale I posted from JUNE OF THIS YEAR?

Grasping at straws you are.

However, how or why this too happens has already been explained to you, but I'll say it one more time for you- Given the fact that the books do have 5-10% printed above actual orders to account for the possibility of damages, rounded up to the nearest case pack, YES, there will be excess inventory on rare occasion that can be liquidated. Particularly on variants, much like the ones on that list, that generated little retailer interest upon their initial offering.

 

Your problem (and this is where your overly biased and negative opinions cloud your judgement), is that you attribute these rare and occasional overages to a vast publisher conspiracy, encompassing all variants, all the time, rather than to what it actually is- the inexact nature of the publishing business.

You have no basis of proof for this. And your goal posts continue to shift. Grasping....

But I'll throw out a real world apples to apples comparison for you that should fully and finally highlight the folly at the mere suggestion (that you continue to try to make) that publishers routinely over-print all of their books, with no regard to the FOC or actual orders placed:

Never said that. Straw man argument. Grasping....

You are a retailer, right? Do you regularly order 200 copies of a title that only has a 25 customer pull list and only averages 40 copies sold a month? Would it make about as much sense for you to do that as it would for a publisher to print 75,000 copies of a book that only received 30,000 orders? or 2000 copies of a ratio variant when only 250 shops qualified and ordered the book? Isn't this, in fact, why you are such a big proponent of returnability to publishers in the first place? Why do you think publishers are in such a hurry to print waste, while you are (obviously) in no hurry to order it, and want to be able to send it back even, if your orders should happen to be even marginally off for the month? Food for thought.

Actually, you prove my point again. I DO often times order OVER the amount that customers subscribers ask for, because I KNOW sometimes I WILL sell more copies of a book.

ALL retailers DO that.

Speaking of DC's rebirth returnability, I noticed that you completely glossed over the smokescreen and irrelevance of even bringing that up as it pertains to Comichron and this discussion of ratio variants, so there's no need to discuss that any further.

Your failure to understand the conversation is just.... grasping at straws.... such desperation....

But I do find it odd, that, in spite of the fact of how many times that you like to say that I am "WRONG" (in all caps) about something, and trying to "DECEIVE" (also in all caps) people, you did not actually say what I am "wrong" about.

 

Was I "wrong" about the one ratio variant you first mentioned being the Original Sin #1 event book?

 

Nope.

Duh. As if that was a point of the debate.Grasping.... desperately....

Was I "wrong" about the publishers printing up to a case pack?

 

Nope. You yourself agree and further stated that case pack sizes vary based on (among other things) the thickness of the book, and you are right about that(!) They range from about 125 (or 150)-250, in increments of 25.

That's what Marvel says. They've proven time and again they don't.

If Marvel doesn't overprint, why do they have to announce it when they don't...

Marvel Announces No Overprint for FF #587

Was I "wrong" about Rebirth and DC's returnabiliy, and how Comichron being a moot point to this discussion, since Rebirth did not have any ratio variants?

 

Nope.

Duh. Has nothing to do with the basis of the discussion. Grasping.... desperately....

Was I "wrong" about the vast majority of the few ratio variants (as demonstrated by your cut and paste) being offered on the secondary market being either "event" books (Star Wars), or a "#1"?

 

Nope.

Yes. Very wrong. 58% is greater than 42%. Just to help with the math....

You can stomp your feet and shout in all caps, raising your fist to the sky in frustration all you want. But at the end of the day, the entire crux of your statements and opinions are premised on nothing more than the belief in a publisher conspiracy that defies not only standard publishing conventions, but common sense.

 

But you are certainly entitled to believe in whatever you want to believe in, no matter how remote or far-fetched or dare I say lunatic (?), that belief is.

 

-J.

Desperately grasping at straws.

No one believes you anymore Jay, except your one or two cronies who are also out to deceive people.

Your arguments have no facts to back them up, whereas mine does.

I'm sorry you've lost the debate. You just don't have any evidence to prove anything, and I have tons of it.

It's ok, you still own some cool comics.

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

 

 

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

 

That sure is a huge "if," isn't it?

 

But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all.

Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off

No, Comichron does not adjust anything. Diamond adjusts the numbers.

Well, at least Jaydogrules can take solace in the fact that he isn't the only one who doesn't understand the Comichron numbers.

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

 

 

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

 

That sure is a huge "if," isn't it?

 

But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all.

Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off

 

No, Comichron does not adjust anything. Diamond adjusts the numbers.

 

Well, at least Jaydogrules can take solace in the fact that he isn't the only one who doesn't understand the Comichron numbers.

Actually , you're the one who got it wrong. You would have been better off simply saying nothing further on the topic.

But nice attempt to save face by trying to split hairs on a point that everyone else has already agreed is moot to this thread anyway.

-J.

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants, B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

 

 

Comichron doesn't adjust anything, which you would know if you ever had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

 

That sure is a huge "if," isn't it?

 

But thanks for proving (once again) that you don't understand the Comichron numbers at all.

Comichron does adjust numbers down for books that are returnable. I think they knock off about 10% off

 

No, Comichron does not adjust anything. Diamond adjusts the numbers.

 

Well, at least Jaydogrules can take solace in the fact that he isn't the only one who doesn't understand the Comichron numbers.

 

Actually , you're the one who got it wrong. You would have been better off simply saying nothing further on the topic.

 

But nice attempt to save face by trying to split hairs on a point that everyone else has already agreed is moot to this thread anyway.

 

-J.

There was no attempt to "save face", nor was there any necessary. It was obvious by the fact that the word "Comichron" was italicized what he was referring to.

Details, Jay. You've gotten 5, 6, 7, 10, 20 details wrong, just in this single conversation, and you just brush them off and ignore them like it's no big deal.

But is it...? When you're attempting to make estimates, details are critical to arriving at reasonable conclusions. Getting even tiny details wrong can mean your final conclusion is essentially worthless.

It is important to know where these numbers come from, and what they represent. These numbers DO NOT come from Comichron. They come from Diamond.

Details. They matter.

Of course, you've claimed in the past that lazyboy and I are the same person, which betrays a lack of understanding about how these boards work, and we're demonstrably not, so maybe that's what you think is going on here: logging out of one account to "support" another.

Mic drop

Hey!

What the hell has this entire thread been...?

This thread makes Blob's brain hurt.

Luckily I only buy variants when my LCS has given up and put them in the dollar box (or offers them to me cheap when they want to get rid of them) or accidentally put them on the rack at cover price (hello Staples Rat Queen 1 cover!) so I don't have to think about these things.

"Of course, you've claimed in the past that lazyboy and I are the same person, which betrays a lack of understanding about how these boards work, and we're demonstrably not, so maybe that's what you think is going on here: logging out of one account to "support" another."

Wait a minute, I thought the theory is that you and Joe Collector were the same person a la Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde? Although Lazyboy says he is from Canada, and so is JoeC....

 

Fact: Chuck Gower is attempting to qualify and walk back his his own earlier posts and statements on the issue, because he is one of the few retailers on the boards who is notoriously and consistently anti-variant.

You CANNOT continue to make things up about others and state it as if it is fact, especially in the face of those people directly contradicting your claims about them.

Chuck has said, on numerous times, that he is very pro-variant. I sat in his presence while he ordered multiples of them, as mentioned earlier.

You CANNOT continue to do this. At some point, moderation WILL wake up to it, and you WILL have to deal with the fallout if you continue this type of subversive "argumentation" to discredit not ideas, but the people behind those ideas. It may work with much of the idjit masses, but it won't work forever.

Someday, someone will wake up to it.

Fact: The one, single book that Chuck Gower is attempting to prove his alleged conspiracy with now (the ratio book that he claims he was able to order 30 copies of) is the Original Sin #1 1:25.

Eventually, moderation is going to wake up to your BEYOND demeaning and disrespectful, but certainly subtle, abuse of the language, like "he claims he was able to order" (emphasis added.)

I was an EYE WITNESS to that event. I watched it happen AS IT HAPPENED. No need for you to say he "claims" it happened, as if to introduce doubt about it and Chuck.

So enough of your abuse of the language.

Original Sin was a large event from 2014, the first issue was the top seller for the month with nearly 150,000 copies ordered, and it alone had a dozen variants , only two of which were ratio (a 1:25 and a 1:50). With that in mind, it's not hard to fathom why there would be unclaimed/unordered overages on a 1:25.

Totally, completely, utterly irrelevant. The point has NEVER BEEN "publishers "overprint" incentive variants for EVENTS." The point is simply that they "overprint" (that is, they print exactly to THEIR ORDER) incentive variants.

The reasons why aren't. at. all. relevant. for. this. discussion. The point simply is that they DO, which is what you have argued against from the beginning, because you don't know what you're talking about.

And what does "unclaimed" overages even mean...? Once more: publishers know EXACTLY how many copies of an incentive they need to print at the time it is printed to cover qualifying ORDERS for incentive variants (not just the regular copies, here.) That's WHY there's an FOC. Therefore, there's no such thing as an "unclaimed" incentive variant.

What there IS, however, is MORE incentive variants printed than are needed fulfill qualifying orders. Why?

Because they print them that way.

However The fact that Chuck Gower was able to order 30 copies of it only proves that there were at least 30 unneeded copies of that book. Even if Chuck Gower ordered 30 copies, 15 other guys ordered 10, 15 more retailers ordered 2, and 35 others wanted one copy each, that would still be enough to account for the remnants of one case pack.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, what a wonderful world this would be.

You don't know. No one knows but Diamond and the publishers, and they aren't talking. You're guessing, but what's far worse, you're guessing to fit your conclusion, rather than letting your conclusion be open to the information.

Mr. Gower's attempts to extrapolate that one book out into the entire variant market and all variants ever printed by implying that publishers do in fact wildly and deliberately over print books that no one ordered (despite public statements from at least one publisher to the contrary) is his own preposterous conspiracy theorizing again.

Straw man. No one said anything about "wildly and deliberately over print(ing) books that no one ordered." No one is "conspiracy theorizing" except you. It is not a "conspiracy" if there's nothing being lied about,

That is YOUR (mis)characterization, not anyone else's.

Publishers print what they want, for whatever reasons they want, which reasons are not made public. That anyone would argue against this is pretty mindboggling.

Fact: Chuck Gower , again attempting to use another extreme , massive event (e.g. Star Wars launch, Original Sin launch, etc.) to prove his point , now brings up the massive DC Rebirth launch

"Extreme", "massive", "wildly", "conspiracy"....do you ever notice how laden your posts are with hyperbole...?

However he is disingenuously (and knowingly) muddying the waters here, since A) His statements about re-orders and Comichron have nothing to do with ratio vatiants,

Here, let's try a trick from your bag:

That's right, Comichron does have nothing to do with incentive (ratio) variants.

B) Rebirth didn't have any ratio variants offered , and C) DC allows returnability anyway (including on all of the #1's), so his point is doubly moot (meaning their Comichron sell through numbers are actually reduced by returnability , and not low and/or under-reported due to "re-orders" as he implies- hence all of the asterisks you see next to the DC Rebirth titles on Comichron) And, on the flip side, if Comichron has enough time to adjust its final figures down for returns , then, obviously it has enough time to adjust up for any potential re-orders as well (which is why they have the lag time that they do every month before they release their reports for the prior month). But again , this entire point is irrelevant with respect to ratio variants.

 

What was that RMA said about being entitled to your own opinion , but not your own facts ?

 

-J.

None of what you just said refuted anything anyone has said, so...yes, you, Jaydogrules, are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

 

But I'll throw out a real world apples to apples comparison for you that should fully and finally highlight the folly at the mere suggestion (that you continue to try to make) that publishers routinely over-print all of their books, with no regard to the FOC or actual orders placed:

 

You are so frustratingly obtuse.

The FOC is so the retailers have a hard deadline, and the publishers know what they NEED....not what they WANT.

This is NOT a difficult concept, here.

Printing more than they NEED does not render the FOC "pointless." The FOC is not a DICTATE to the publisher. It simply tells them what they MUST print to fulfill orders. BEYOND that is at THEIR DISCRETION for THEIR REASONS.

I have already said this at least ONCE. Now I've said it TWICE. Shall we go for a THIRD?

RMA, you are also a broken record.

Everything you have just said has already been answered. Have you already forgotten ?

Again, according to Mr. Gower (on 2/2/16), Marvel's public position was the following:

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

So yes, the publishers (at least Marvel), are talking, and that's their official position.

And yet he and you have both either said or implied they are "lying" about it.

Here's where you said it:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=15

Here's where Mr. Gower implied it:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=17

When someone repeatedly accuses one of the largest publisher of comic books in the world of "lying" to everyone in their public releases yes, you are essentially accusing them of conspiratorial conduct (why else "lie", then?), and are thusly calling their ratio variant program a fraud. Sorry, pal, but if you are going to make or imply libelous allegations like that, you better darn well bring the goods with "proof" and "facts" and "transcripts", and "print-outs", or whatever the hell else you keep asking me and others for, yet provide absolutely none of yourself, even though you are the one making the provocative and unsubstantiated claims. And based on what exactly? Because "sometimes" an excess of inventory of a handful of ratio variants end up for sale through secondary channels? That's all you got? Seriously? Again, "why" this can happen has already been repeatedly explained to you. But if you think the fact that Marvel burns off remaindered case packs of a couple hundred drekky variants (out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands printed) every year or two is "proof" of a conspiracy/and or that those couple hundred variants (not even all them ratio variants, as we have seen) are representative of or can or should be extrapolated to their entire incentive ratio variant program, then good on you, mate. You are indeed entitled to whatever far-fetched opinions your imagination can muster.

-J.

RMA, you are also a broken record.

 

Everything you have just said has already been answered. Have you already forgotten ?

 

Again, according to Mr. Gower (on 2/2/16), Marvel's public position was the following:

 

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

So yes, the publishers (at least Marvel), are talking, and that's their official position.

 

And yet he and you have both either said or implied they are "lying" about it.

 

Here's where you said it:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=15

 

Here's where Mr. Gower implied it:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=17

 

When someone repeatedly accuses one of the largest publisher of comic books in the world of "lying" to everyone in their public releases yes, you are essentially accusing them of conspiratorial conduct (why else "lie", then?), and are thusly calling their ratio variant program a fraud. Sorry, pal, but if you are going to make or imply libelous allegations like that, you better darn well bring the goods with "proof" and "facts" and "transcripts", and "print-outs", or whatever the hell else you keep asking me and others for, yet provide absolutely none of yourself, even though you are the one making the provocative and unsubstantiated claims. And based on what exactly? Because "sometimes" an excess of inventory of a handful of ratio variants end up for sale through secondary channels? That's all you got? Seriously? Again, "why" this can happen has already been repeatedly explained to you. But if you think the fact that Marvel burns off remaindered case packs of a couple hundred drekky variants (out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands printed) every year or two is "proof" of a conspiracy/and or that those couple hundred variants (not even all them ratio variants, as we have seen) are representative of or can or should be extrapolated to their entire incentive ratio variant program, then good on you, mate. You are indeed entitled to whatever far-fetched opinions your imagination can muster.

 

-J.

The proof IS there.

An endless amount of additional Variants above and beyond the 'ratio'. The FACT is they DO print above and beyond the ratio they claim.

Now, you keep moving the goalposts, but the original argument was ratio vs not and it's already ESTABLISHED that they do NOT print to ratio. PERIOD.

You started out hardline - 'they only print to the ratio!' Proven WRONG.

Then it was - 'it's only for #1's and events!' Proven WRONG.

Then it became - 'they round up to the case pack'. NO PROOF.

No one needs to call Marvel a liar or point a finger at suspect behavior. It's there for all to see.

You and one or two other people trying to deceive the market are the ONLY ones making the claim still.

Here's the thing about variant covers

"They only printed 100 of that!"

No they didn't. It's an issue of Amazing Spiderman. They printed half a million. One leaf among 20 or so is different. The rest is the same. The comic isn't rare. One day people are going to wonder why anyone cared about variant covers. They'll laugh at variant collections like they laugh at our polybagged-with-card collectors issues today.

Nothing published by any major publisher is rare in correlation with the number of actual collectors out there. If something's hard to find, it's not because a thousand people want it, it's because someone bought a thousand of them.

Here's the thing about variant covers

 

"They only printed 100 of that!"

 

No they didn't. It's an issue of Amazing Spiderman. They printed half a million. One leaf among 20 or so is different. The rest is the same. The comic isn't rare. One day people are going to wonder why anyone cared about variant covers. They'll laugh at variant collections like they laugh at our polybagged-with-card collectors issues today.

 

Nothing published by any major publisher is rare in correlation with the number of actual collectors out there. If something's hard to find, it's not because a thousand people want it, it's because someone bought a thousand of them.

so true!

RMA, you are also a broken record.

 

Everything you have just said has already been answered. Have you already forgotten ?

There hasn't been anything to forget.

Again, according to Mr. Gower (on 2/2/16), Marvel's public position was the following:

 

 

Marvel is much more secretive, but have somewhat tightened up their print runs for most variants, especially after the massive overstock that had to be sold off in 2013.

Or so it seemed...

 

They recently have come under criticism for Star Wars Variants and Action Figure Variants that have suddenly appeared directly from them, much after the fact. This mysterious additional glut of product has led to them to take a hard line PR stance that variants are printed to order and rounded up to the case pack size.

 

So yes, the publishers (at least Marvel), are talking, and that's their official position.

What part of "PR" is unclear to you? "PR" means "public relations." Those are the people who deal with the public and make sure that everybody's perception of how things are going is peachy.

And yet he and you have both either said or implied they are "lying" about it.

Yes, Jay, when someone says something that is later proven to be untrue, we call that a "lie."

Here's where you said it:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=15

 

Here's where Mr. Gower implied it:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=9602105&fpart=17

 

When someone repeatedly accuses one of the largest publisher of comic books in the world

More weasel words used only to sway the ignorant. What does being "one of the largest publisher(s) of comic books in the world" have to do with anything?

Does being "one of the largest publisher(s) of comic books in the world" mean they have more integrity? Hardly.

Your language is peppered with things like this.

And what is this "repeatedly" business? More mischaracterization to sway the ignorant.

of "lying" to everyone in their public releases yes, you are essentially accusing them of conspiratorial conduct (why else "lie", then?)

Do you not understand that there's a difference between a lie and a conspiracy....?

They're not the same thing.

And yes, they lied, as the later releases of SW variants proved.

, and are thusly calling their ratio variant program a fraud.

Wait, what now...?

How do you leap from "they lied about a specific set of books" to "the entire program is a fraud"...? How do you make that "leap" in "logic"...?

First...there is no fraud involved with the entire program as it relates to the ratios and print runs, because there have been no claims made about those ratios having anything to do with print runs.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that, Jay.

Sorry, pal, but if you are going to make or imply libelous allegations like that,

Oh for Pete's sake.

Facts:

1. Marvel claimed they were "tightening up print runs on incentive variants" after their 2013 overstock selloff (whatever THAT means, because that information was never made available to the public.)

2. Marvel then proceeded to release more incentive variants after the fact in 2015, after making the above promise.

Therefore, Marvel did NOT "tighten up their print runs" as they claimed they were going to.

"Libel" is, by definition, FALSE. If the statements made aren't false, it's not libel.

you better darn well bring the goods with "proof" and "facts" and "transcripts", and "print-outs",

Chuck already posted this information. Did you miss it...?

or whatever the hell else you keep asking me and others for,

What others...? You're the only one arguing here, Jay.

yet provide absolutely none of yourself,

More weasel words for the ignorant to swallow.

First: As I have said before: there isn't any proof of that which does not exist. You cannot PROVE a negative.

Are you paying ANY attention?

Second: of the things that ARE provable, go back and read my posts and Chuck's posts. It's all there. You know, the fact that the ratios have to do with ORDERING, and have NEVER been presented as anything but...?

Just read any Diamond solicitation for an incentive variant, and you will see this:

"For every X copies of the regular cover you order, you will receive/may purchase ONE copy of the variant."

Here, let's use your favorite incentive ratio as the example:

http://www.diamondcomics.com/Home/1/1/3/746?articleID=110712

"Retailers may order one copy of the Amazing Spider-Man #667 Dell’Otto Variant (MAY118321D, $3.99) for every 100 copies of the regular Amazing Spider-Man #667 (JUN110622D, $3.99) ordered by its FOC date of Monday, July 18."

That's it. That's all there's ever been with regards to those ratios. That's all there is. Do you see it?

That's called proof, Jay. That's called documentation, Jay. That's called evidence, Jay.

Do you see that? What was that you were complaining about me providing "absolutely none of" myself...?

Do you see that, Jay? That's called proof. I must belabor the incredibly obvious, because you keep repeating the same lies, as if repetition of those lies makes them magically true.

Speaking of facts...

You know, the fact that Comichron states that their numbers are as reported from Diamond, and are SALES ESTIMATES from North American stores...?

Here, here's proof:

"Estimated Comics Sold to North American Comics Shops as Reported by Diamond Comic Distributors

This list includes all items on Diamond's Top 300 charts, plus any post-#300 items from its Top 50 Indy and Small Publisher charts. If you don't see a book, Diamond released no data for it."

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016/2016-09.html

See that, Jay? That's called "proof." It's evidence. It's documentation of what I'm saying. You needn't believe me. You can go to the source itself

Now...I know fully well that this will be completely ignored, but what proof of ANYTHING you have EVER SAID have you provided, aside from quoting "knowledgeable boardies" about THEIR opinions...?

Hmmmm...?

That's right. Nothing.

Just because you ignore proof doesn't mean it hasn't been given.

even though you are the one making the provocative and unsubstantiated claims.

What is "provocative" about any of my claims? Can you say, or will you just continue to make your own unsubstantiated claims as you endlessly do?

What is "unsubstantiated" about my claims? Can you say...? Do you know....?

And based on what exactly? Because "sometimes" an excess of inventory of a handful of ratio variants end up for sale through secondary channels? That's all you got? Seriously?

Yes, Jay, that's all ANYONE has got.

You know why it works?

Because it relies on a concept called "falsifiability." That is, to prove a theory wrong (such as "publishers always print to order on the incentive variants, with incidental rounding up to the nearest "case pack" when necessary"), I need only come up with ONE instance where it's demonstrably wrong to falsify the theory.

That is...if there's only A SINGLE instance where that theory is proven wrong, then the whole theory is wrong.

But, far more than that, there isn't just a SINGLE instance where this theory has been proven untrue...there are DOZENS of such instances, if not HUNDREDS.

Therefore...I don't need to prove your theory (hypothesis) is TRUE....I only need to show that it is FALSE, and it is therefore incumbent on YOU, the one MAKING the hypothesis, to thereby prove that your theory is MOSTLY true...

...which you cannot do, as you don't have any access to the publishers' internal numbers.

And THAT, dear boy, is ACTUAL SCIENCE.

Again, "why" this can happen has already been repeatedly explained to you.

Yes, and it has just as repeatedly been explained to you why your theories are full of holes. Repetition, despite your persistence, does not render your statements and lies true.

But if you think the fact that Marvel burns off remaindered case packs of a couple hundred drekky variants (out of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands printed) every year or two is "proof" of a conspiracy/and or that those couple hundred variants

Again: "conspiracy" is YOUR term. No one but YOU claimed anything about ANY "conspiracy." That's all you.

(not even all them ratio variants, as we have seen)

You keep repeating this, and you keep getting told that if they aren't incentive variants (not "ratio" variants, which is a sloppy term) they aren't relevant, in any way, to this conversation. Yet, you "repeatedly" bring it up. It has no relevance. Stop bringing it up.

are representative of or can or should be extrapolated to their entire incentive ratio variant program, then good on you, mate.

I've already explained this to you, and I'll explain it again: I only need to show that your theory is false ONCE to prove that it is always false. But you have been shown not just ONCE, but DOZENS of times that your "theory" is false.

It is therefore incumbent on YOU to PROVE that your theory is true MOST of the time...which you cannot do, as you are not privy to the publishers' internal numbers.

You are indeed entitled to whatever far-fetched opinions your imagination can muster.

 

-J.

What...you mean like your opinion that the census can be used to demonstrate, with any degree of accuracy, how rare a book is...?

You mean THAT kind of far-fetched theory...?

Now please, Jay, find somewhere else to post. This has been a great conversation, and lots of information has been shared. I'd really rather it not be shut down because you insist on arguing about all of this so vociferously.

RMA is so concerned about how big or small a print run is, i'm starting to think he's losing sleep over it, truth is about print runs is that unless a few million are printed, it really doesn't matter as long as the demand is there. Books are everywhere, Any book can be "rare" doesn't mean someone will buy it. I have several hard to find books in my collection, only one that wanted them is me.