The Unofficial Underground Comix thread...

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Thanks WP. I was, early on, hoping to put together an updated color version of the Illustrated Checklist to Underground Comix with different printings included and had over the years collected tens of thousands of different pics and scans, but my passion for Underground Comix has long left me. Probably the biggest reason was losing the two big Ug C forums and most all that data posted on them. I had No interest in anything as big as a new guide as there isn't enough market for competing guides and I think Fogel's does a good enough job. My collection (roughly a dozen long boxes and about 15 mag. boxes) probably has a few more small updates in it that could be added to the current guide but I have a hard time recalling what I've found over the years, now. Funny that SDCC is next week but I had forgotten that until a couple days ago. Howard would occasionally call and ask about comix or if I was going to SD and if I needed a pass, but since his passing I really don't have any one else I discuss this stuff with except on this forum.

I still think the white box Big #1 not being the first printing is kind of weird, it sounds like something that would have been wrong with the first printing that was later corrected. My question is how did it go from red, to white, then back to red? Maybe it's a dumb question, but I'm curious as to how it may have happened.

I still think the white box Big #1 not being the first printing is kind of weird, it sounds like something that would have been wrong with the first printing that was later corrected. My question is how did it go from red, to white, then back to red? Maybe it's a dumb question, but I'm curious as to how it may have happened.

And yet the idea or reality of Hydrogen Bomb And Biochemical Warfare Funnies having a $1.00 price on it's 1st and 3rd printings, while the second is 50c seems logical? Hey man, it's UG..... why should anything make sense?

What other comix had a price reduction on a subsequent printing? I know Marvel Comics did in 1971 or so, but you also got less pages! I think either Moriaty or 50 Cent explained the rationale in the original revelation that white box Big A*ss was the second....but I forget what it was.......too much LDS is the Seventies, perhaps.....

Disclaimer: the scope, depth and the amount of correct information in Kennedy always has been a little bit scary to me. What a feat he and his contributors had pulled off is a little amazing.

That being said, the one entry that always bothered me the most is for Faerie Star 2, published in 1979 by Moon Productions.

It's one thing to juggle the print run order of a key underground like BA #1, but to state that something had a run of 2,000 when it clearly had a major production issue is just weird.

I have never seen the image of Faerie Star 2 posted, have seen a single copy for sale or recorded as an auction record. But it has still made its way onto to a lot of want lists, the Headcomix wiki and into the most recent Fog (and at a really low price too).

Could someone please sell one of their extras to me, I will pay triple the list price

Disclaimer: the scope, depth and the amount of correct information in Kennedy always has been a little bit scary to me. What a feat he and his contributors had pulled off is a little amazing.

 

That being said, the one entry that always bothered me the most is for Faerie Star 2, published in 1979 by Moon Productions.

 

It's one thing to juggle the print run order of a key underground like BA #1, but to state that something had a run of 2,000 when it clearly had a major production issue is just weird.

 

I have never seen the image of Faerie Star 2 posted, have seen a single copy for sale or recorded as an auction record. But it has still made its way onto to a lot of want lists, the Headcomix wiki and into the most recent Fog (and at a really low price too).

 

Could someone please sell one of their extras to me, I will pay triple the list price

Maybe it's one of those entries that was a plant, so to speak, of a non-existant book, so if anybody tried to copy and redistribute JK's info, he could point to that one and say A-HA!! Busted!!! I recall some chat about that sort of thing in one of the old, lost threads from another time and place....

Can't confirm it, because all of our old posts disappeared, but I'm pretty sure we discussed Faerie Star #2 on the old board. I had bought copies of Faerie Star #1 off eBay from someone associated with creating the book (might have been the publisher) and I believe he told me for a fact that #2 was never made.

Again, can't confirm any of this, because all that valuable information was lost...

Hello gents (& ladies?)

I hope this is the right place to post the following request.

I m looking for Moscoso's minicomix 7¢ number 2. If you have a copy for sale, please reply by PM.

(I apologize if such a post is inappropriate in this group. If it is so feel free to let me know about the appropriate thread where I could repost it)

Can't confirm it, because all of our old posts disappeared, but I'm pretty sure we discussed Faerie Star #2 on the old board. I had bought copies of Faerie Star #1 off eBay from someone associated with creating the book (might have been the publisher) and I believe he told me for a fact that #2 was never made.

 

Again, can't confirm any of this, because all that valuable information was lost...

You're right Joe. I did read something like that a few years ago. I thought it was on comixjoint.com, but it is not. I tried to find that source again, when I saw that Dan F. still had it listed in his new guide (with NM copies going for $10!) and I wanted to make sure that it really wasn't known in the market.

It probably was on a long gone forum. Too bad.

I tried to contact the editor/publisher, but could not find his contact info on-line. He seems to share his name with a Christian comic publisher. I selected to not contact that person, it would have been too weird for me if it wasn`t him.

I did the next best thing and contacted Brad Foster who replied:

"Ah, "Faeire Star" #2. Yeah, I kind of remember that. Was so pleased back then, going to have a long strip printed in a comic that was "almost-an-u.g. commix!" I remember waiting and waiting for it to come out, sending letters now and then to check, hearing about how it would be "any day now". But, it just never seemed to have happened. The publisher vanished, as far as I can recall, without a word. Every once in a while I saw something that made me think it -had- been printed, but never could track down any copies myself. At this point, I don't think it was printed, but still ends up on some lists of zines from that era.

I think you'd be safe to mark it off your list of items to look for. One of thousands of projects that got "just this close" to print, but then fell through. Heck, getting your email, I looked at some old lists I have here where I would keep track of things I had sent out for various publications, and over the decades there are now hundreds of pieces that are evidently still out there, stuck in file cabinets, drawers, folders, boxes, or whatnot, waiting to see print, and probably never will. Such is the small press!"

It's funny that Kennedy had very specific info on the artists involved, number printed, cover price, number of pages, price, publication date etc. and it probably never went to press.

Who`s going to tell Dan Fogel that he sold the only known copy of Faerie Star #2 for a paltry $10!

Anybody ever come across this sort of mutant Plymell Zap #1? This was printed without the yellow! As you can see by the vividness of the blue ink, this is an intended or experimental variant. Perhaps the only one in existence and is in vg/f condition. Any idea of a value to put on it?

Neatstuff had one of these back in the day.

I think it came from Donahue when Carbo purchased the Mowry Zaps and a buncha Donahue stock.

There was another that was partially white, perhaps?

50c-

I am curious about the following assumptions...

1. If a book has pages out of order, it must be an earlier printing (e.g. BA 1)

2. If a book has matte (or glossy) cover stock, it must be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 2)

3. If a book has an ad for an ealier underground, it must be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 2)

4. If said ad is slightly lower quality, then it must be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 2)

5. If a book has a manufacturing defect, like a rolling blotch of color or a roaming print line, it may be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 1 or 2)

While some of these were established via data sources some 50 years ago (and by an author that had far more 1st hand information)... why assume that this is always the case going forward?

My MAIN problem is that the F UGG15 sets these as certainities for BA 1 and FFFB 2 (AKA distinct printings; sans #5 of course), when in reality it is conjecture.

My

Definitely a case where people want belief to trump first hand information in a way that would seem to call into question many other claims about UG one sees for sale in all the pertinent arenas, eh? Collectors love to live in denial when it suits them, it would appear! Maybe Mr. Moriaty will do them all a favor and just die so the delusion can become the state of things.....too much fun!!!

(Qualifier- I know this wasn't directed at me)

I see your point WP, though for the record I have only ever bought two copies of FFFB 2 and have never bought a copy of BA 1 ... indeed I have stayed away from these books because of all this mess.

So, I can honestly tell you... I am not living in denial.

I simply understand the difference between hypothesis, evidence, theory and fact.

And I can see the embedded assumptions in all of this (and am only hoping others do as well).

Definitely a case where people want belief to trump first hand information in a way that would seem to call into question many other claims about UG one sees for sale in all the pertinent arenas, eh? Collectors love to live in denial when it suits them, it would appear! Maybe Mr. Moriaty will do them all a favor and just die so the delusion can become the state of things.....too much fun!!!

 

(Qualifier- I know this wasn't directed at me)

 

I see your point WP, though for the record I have only ever bought two copies of FFFB 2 and have never bought a copy of BA 1 ... indeed I have stayed away from these books because of all this mess.

 

So, I can honestly tell you... I am not living in denial.

 

I simply understand the difference between hypothesis, evidence, theory and fact.

And I can see the embedded assumptions in all of this (and am only hoping others do as well).

It was directed nowhere in particular, so I'm glad you weren't offended. As you say in a previous post: While some of these were established via data sources some 50 years ago (and by an author that had far more 1st hand information) I'm just pointing out that the guy who has ACTUAL 1st hand info by actually being the guy who ran the press the book was printed on, says otherwise. Also, it would seem, based on some other misinformation that appears sporadically in Kennedy, that the printer has less of an agenda to spread said mis-info. He wasn't trying to complete a collection or protect his published text from plagerists, so I would easily defer to the printer!

50c-

 

I am curious about the following assumptions...

 

1. If a book has pages out of order, it must be an earlier printing (e.g. BA 1)

2. If a book has matte (or glossy) cover stock, it must be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 2)

3. If a book has an ad for an ealier underground, it must be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 2)

4. If said ad is slightly lower quality, then it must be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 2)

5. If a book has a manufacturing defect, like a rolling blotch of color or a roaming print line, it may be an earlier printing (e.g. FFFB 1 or 2)

 

While some of these were established via data sources some 50 years ago (and by an author that had far more 1st hand information)... why assume that this is always the case going forward?

 

My MAIN problem is that the F UGG15 sets these as certainities for BA 1 and FFFB 2 (AKA distinct printings; sans #5 of course), when in reality it is conjecture.

 

My

 

 

1. BA #1 is pretty easy, white box was considered 1st print. I found pages out of order. Dave Moriaty states he was the printer and kept samples. States the red box is the 1st print. I find a red box version that has pages out of order. Therefore conclusion, red box with pages out of order is 1st, white box with pages out of order 2nd print. Find early printings with pages in correct order. Find all later printings with pages in new order. Therefore pages in correct order goes before pages in new order and after pages out of order printings. Then use JK info. to try to place in order that correlates to probable order. Errors possible like missing printings, of course. My input is far better than the original JK listing, yes. Sorry, if I'm a bit of an A**, but some of this just makes sense and I really found some of the people trying to state that my input was wrong when evidence shows it was far more correct than the initial info. found soured me a bit.

Here's what I know about the JK guide. One of the people that is referenced in the JK guide told me he kept hand written notes on the printing from what he found. Some of those notes were used to make up the info. on R. Crumb's Comics and Stories (he still had about 80% of the issues which he had taken his notes from). JK didn't research it at all and just used the notes. The notes were wrong. The new Fogel Guide states all the 35 cent printings are the same, that's wrong also.

2.-4. As I stated, FB #2 is one that will not make sense in printing order. If you go by the ads inside, they do not match with other details on the cover or elsewhere. The big discovery I made was that the Rainbow Edition is not the first print, but variants of the first 3 printings. How did I figure this out. By remembering a post by the biggest Underground Collector around, Bruce S. He stated that there were more than one printings of the Rainbow edition of FB #2. I then began to examine a large collection of FB #2 (the guy told me that Bruce many years earlier came into his shop and did similar with measuring staple placement, paper type, etc., for his entire stock of Undergrounds). I purchased many more copies of FB #2. I purchased multiple copies of the Rainbow edition of FB #2. I found that there were rainbow editions of the 1st 3 printings (someone else pointed out that a later pink paper edition also had a rainbow variant, but since that wasn't the 4th print it didn't involve a continuous run). As I stated, I don't have the definitive printing run and I gave Dan my opinion (I suggested a 1st/2nd printing and 2nd/1st for the guide, he chose what you see), my main contribution was that there was more than one rainbow variant and they are part of the same print run (so the rainbow isn't the first, but a variant of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, thanks to the info. Bruce S. had posted that I then further researched. So the current Fogel guide is again, far closer to the proper print run than the JK, is it truly correct, probably not. Is it more correct, absolutely. I'm always open to more input to show further info. being added to these forums to increase the guide's facts, but for me I lost a lot of the drive when people thought that even with the info., my contributions didn't add up. Oh well... If you want to use the JK guide for FB #2, go ahead. But if some day someone asks you why the inside back ads are different for your rainbow 1st print than their rainbow 1st print, you can explain that the JK guide is correct and their copy doesn't exist or something similar...

5. Moriaty states he was the man printing the the FB #1 1st print and states that a black blotch appears on the first true print of FB #1. I keep my eyes out for a blotch to show up on a FB #1 1st print. I see one show up on eBay and notice the biggest collector of Underground Comix paid a lot of money for what seemed like a poor copy of it. Makes me think maybe this is more than just talk. I find a copy myself. It matches the 1st printing info. plus has black blotch. Using Moriaty's info. and an actual copy I have in my hand I can assume he is correct and don't doubt his word any longer.

Here's 2 more that don't appear in the new Fogel. Both early Gary Panter Undergrounds.

The A**hole (1979 or 1980). I have a copy, it has what appears to be a signature of Panter at the top of page 1, but it's printed there with the same ink as the rest of the book. When searching for other copies, I came across a video I posted on YouTube of an interview with Robert Williams. He opens up his early copy and the signature is not there. So that I assume is a 1st print, the signature is the 2nd print and a later professionally printed printing a 3rd from 2003 (years ago I ended going to the address of the printer that happened to be here in So. Cal. but the shop was long closed) ( http://www.catawiki.com/catalog/comic-books/series-protagonists/individual_without_enough_empathy-the/2966185-the-individual_without_enough_empathy?area=124235209ad156561b0d3111390ed68f18076b48 ), is there others I may have missed. Absolutely. The 2nd print was printed by George DiCaprio (who also printed Yama Yama that Williams discusses) I examined a portion of the stock sold to a dealer (the same guy listed in the JK reference noted above) when George got out of the business.

Hup (1977) by Panter. So there was several copies of this in the stock I examined. But one was different, it had better colors. When examining it I noticed a page number written in pencil on the side of one of one of the pages and the staples had been removed. Examining it closer I realized it was used as the original to copy to make all the 2nd printings that were also included. I contacted Panter and told him that I had found a bunch of Hups from George DiCaprio's stock that appeared to be counterfeit. He stated they weren't counterfeit, that DiCaprio had his permission to reprint it. So I wondered if maybe all of them were part of this stock or if any of the 2nd print had been sold beforehand. Over time I contacted a couple people who had purchased or had for sell copies of Hup and asked if the circled page number on one page appeared there or not. They all stated it did, this let me know that the 2nd print had been sold by George before he got out of the business. So you can tell from inside by the circled page number and from the cover by the colors missing that appear on the 1st print. For some reason both of these don't appear in the Fogel Guide even though The A**hole does appear in the JK.

Notice the light blue in HUP on the cover, not present on the 2nd print. http://www.garypanter.com/site/index.php?/work/comics/

2nd print: http://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1146705

In my opinion Hup is a rather important Underground as I believe it was Panter's first Underground Comix. He's now considered the Father of Punk Rock Art. He's in the same genre as Pettibon (misspelled in the Fogel guide), who's first Underground Comix art appeared in Captive Chains (1978), and his Hup predates Pettibon's first.

Here's another discovery I contributed to. While e-mailing with Charles Plymell he told me that I should get a hold of a friend of his in my area called Robert. I then did research on "Bob" and found that he was the guy that introduced Plymell to Donahue. That Plymell had printed a comic of his a in 1963 that was listed in the JK as "fine artish", but wasn't, was a comix that involved drug use but had the last 2 pages printed out of order (but was in correct order when reprinted in Momma Daddie). Realizing that there were only 2 undergrounds in the JK that were listed as 1963 and none earlier (except for Adventures of Jesus in 1962 that was later admitted to be wrong and should have been 1964 by the guys who had printed it), that it could be that Plymell may have not only started the underground comix era with the printing of the 1st Zap Comix in 1968, but may have actually printed the first Undergound Comix in 1963 (or at least the 2nd). Branaman had been a featured artist at a famous Beat Generation gallery in S.F. called The Batman gallery (nothing to do with Batman, the owner Billy, who got his money from well to do parents liked to wear black so he got the nick name Billy Batman, sadly he moved to Afghanistan with with his wife to get away from the world and one day while handling his pistol, accidentally shot himself in the gut, dying slowly the next day). Bob was friends with artist Bruce Conner who was also featured at that gallery along with Plymell (as well as Wallace Berman who's one of the people on the St. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band cover and George Herms who both went on to recognition in the art world, and famed poet and bookstore owner L. Ferlinghetti). Donahue had met Branaman at the Batman Gallery at one of Bruce Conner's shows. That's how Momma Daddie (by the way, one of my prized original art pieces is a piece I purchased from Branaman that's the original from one of the pages from Momma Daddie) came about years later that eventually brought about Zap Comix not long after that. This was relayed to me by Donahue (who referred to Branaman as the original hippie years before hippies came to be) before he passed away, as well as by Plymell and Branaman. When I say that the Underground Comix era was born from the Beat Generation poets, that's what I mean. It was Beat Generation artists, fans of those artists and Beat Generation poets/printers printing their poetry chap books and tabloid papers (see Now, Now Now, and Now Now Now and The Last Times #1 & 2) that created it, just like it was the Beat Generation the became the Hippie Generation in the mid 60's. That along with the college mags. like Texas Ranger and Berkeley Barb were the forefathers of the movement. It was the same people that just started taking psychedelics and wearing colorful clothes in S.F. that started the younger people following suit and traveling to S.F. For a long time I looked for photos of the gallery showings at the Batman Gallery to see if we could find a more definite date for Robert Ronnie Branaman than 1963. Neither BRANAMAN or Plymell can remember much from that period due to a lot of drug use. I never did. There's a large collection of the Batman Gallery in Australia now. I once tried to contact them to see about pictures, but wasn't successful with more than a reply stating they were holding a large collection from the Batman. So, if some day someone finds pictures of a Gallery Showing from the Batman Gallery that we can place in May or before of 1963 that has the Robert Ronnie Branaman comic in it, then that will show that it is actually the first Underground Comix over Das Kampf. There's a book on the Batman Gallery (with multiple printings) that, if I recall correctly, has a list of dates of the shows there. If anyone wants to jump on some Underground research. I'm pretty done with mine.

All my info. about Plymell's The Last Times #1 having lifted a R. Crumb page from Yarrowstalks #2 has been posted before. Note the 2 reference books list issue #1 and Issue #3. Plymell told me he got a copy of Yarrowstalks from a friend that had driven across country to S.F. and had dropped by his printing shop in S.F. and gave him a copy. I purchased a few copies of The Last Times #1 and #2. I purchased a copy of Yarrowstalks #1 and 2 and found the lifted page in #2. This led Plymell to suggest Crumb when Donahue suggested they print a comic book together, after Donahue was introduced to Plymell by Branaman. This was due to Donahue asking Branaman if he knew a printer, since the one that Donahue had used to print the Momma Daddie won't let him pick up the finished product. Branaman suggested his friend Plymell.

I'm sure you recall my Zap Comix #2 research, and I made sure to mention that it started with Comic Wiz's mention of the 1st print miscut. Not my fault he didn't think to contact Donahue directly to ask and I did.

Someone probably profited well by buying all the rest of Donahue's copies of Zap Comix #1 (2nd print) file copies after they admitted they got the idea from me doing that for California Comics #3 from him...

Anybody ever come across this sort of mutant Plymell Zap #1? This was printed without the yellow! As you can see by the vividness of the blue ink, this is an intended or experimental variant. Perhaps the only one in existence and is in vg/f condition. Any idea of a value to put on it?

 

They used two different color blues on the first print. A small portion of the 1st print had a blue that Crumb didn't like and so during the print run they switched to a different blue. I forget which shade of color (the light or the dark blue) was the rarer early portion of the run.

Anyone know if Arnie went to the SDCC this year? Usually he posts something before hand but I don't see anything by him lately.

Anyone know if Arnie when to the SDCC this year? Usually he posts something before hand but I don't see anything by him lately.

He told me that he planned to go this year and was packing to do so, as early as a month ago.

50-

Thanks for sharing further explanation of your thought process.

It is nice to see the information laid out after all these years, even if I still have reservations.

PS. I empathize with your falling out of underground reseach. I did the same thing; lost a lot of drive in that area and (largely) stopped buying on eBay. Moderns seem to give me more joy these days. And even more joy is the simple hunt to find comics in the wild.

Anybody ever come across this sort of mutant Plymell Zap #1? This was printed without the yellow! As you can see by the vividness of the blue ink, this is an intended or experimental variant. Perhaps the only one in existence and is in vg/f condition. Any idea of a value to put on it?

 

Cool book, but why assume it was anything other than a printing error, which is fairly common with underground comics.

Anybody ever come across this sort of mutant Plymell Zap #1? This was printed without the yellow! As you can see by the vividness of the blue ink, this is an intended or experimental variant. Perhaps the only one in existence and is in vg/f condition. Any idea of a value to put on it?

 

 

Cool book, but why assume it was anything other than a printing error, which is fairly common with underground comics.

It was pretty much printed one sheet at a time with room for experimentation or just a cool thing to play around with when stoned. I doubt it was unintentional.