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Old Frank Miller thread
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27 posts in this topic

No Linky but I cut/pasted what I thought was the final word into my Excel file:

 

DD #158-172: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.

 

DD #173-180: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

 

DD #181: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

 

DD #182,184: Layouts by Miller in the same sheet, embellishment by Janson.

 

DD #183 (supposed to be DD167): Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.

 

DD #185-190: Layouts by Miller in a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the original art.

 

DD #191: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Austin.

 

Thanks! I will do the same...it is pretty useful information!

 

Best,

 

Carlo

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Here's my standard answer to this question. It includes all the reasons why we reached the consensus in that thread.

 

Please note - the information in the posts above this is incorrect. Please click the spoiler tag to get the right information.

 

 

 

On the comicart-l and the CGC OA board, we have had a long conversation on the topic of the work split on the Miller DD run. This write-up is based on e-mails and posting from many people. Foremost among them are: Mitch Itkowitz, Ferran Delgado, Gene Park (notes on 158, 162, 163, 179-180), and Mike O'Halloran (Theory on 182-184), and NelsonAl (photocopies of 182 and 184; see below for their origin). I took notes and created this summary. I believe it represents the best understanding available to us, but it may not be perfect. Other comments are welcome and especially if they come with evidence that I can cite.

 

Hope this helps. Be sure to save and reference! :)

 

Here's the link to this post:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=6672890&Number=8098126#Post8098126

 

The consensus of how Miller/Janson exectuted the "Miller" DD run is as follows:

  • DD #158-161,163-172: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.
    Notes:
    • Rubinstein was the cover inker for #158
    • Ditko did all the art for #162
    • Rubinstein was the co-inker (with Janson) for #163
    • See discussion of 168 below

    [*]DD #173-184: Layouts by Miller on the same sheet, embellishment by Janson

    [*]DD #185-190: Layouts by Miller on a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the published original art.

    [*]DD #191: Detailed layouts by Miller, finishes by Austin

 

The above summary was derived from a lot of evidence and speculation. I'm going to try and capture that in the following notes:

  • Issue 168:
    The issue: GCD lists Miller as breakdown artist on issue 168 while the credits on the issue itself list Miller as artist but Janson as Inker and Embellisher.
    • Notes:
  • The issue was identified by MikeyO.
    [Regarding credits on 168 - ed], I would be hesitant to describe this as the same relationship when it comes to the division of labour where art is concerned in issues 173 on. I think, by looking at the art that what might be described as Miller "breakdowns" are closer to a finished product when it comes to 168, but given the public notations, I thought it was worth mentioning.
  • NelsonAI states that he has photocopies that he describes as "full pencils" for this book.
    I have chosen to accept Nelson's claim in my summary above. I'll change it if better evidence comes along.

[*]The style of the art shifted between 178 and 179-184, this made people wonder if the working method had changed.

[*]There was once a theory that since issues 182-184 (Punisher arc) were originally intended for an earlier publication and since we know that from 185 on that Miller provided smaller pages with breakdowns that there might have a mix of (Miller pencils/Janson inks) and all Jansen pages from Miller layouts in those issues. It might be difficult to know who actually did what as the story was altered for the revised publication and changed situation.

[*]Adding to the confusion was this comment posted by Klaus. In it he clearly states:

Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185.

[*]MikeyO, the articulator of the theory in the note above, later wrote:

My theory is logical but needs support from other sources. Some one could counter and say the previous art drawn by Miller a year and a half or so ago may have been used as a complete issue (perhaps issue 183?). My guess is that other pages were inserted but I still think verification is necessary.

 

Mitch [itkowitz - ed] had responded that your previous supposition was correct (that Miller went to breakdowns and Janson finished on the same page for 182 to 184), but if you think about the possible rationalization that Mitch is using to assume this you can determine he may be coming to an erroneous conclusion. As Mitch said he got the whole issue of 181 from Janson to sell because he essentially drew the issue, so Mitch would assume any issue he received the complete book would be done in this method and any book where Mitch received only partial pages to an issue would indicate that Miller did breakdowns on the page and Janson finished. The problem with that logic is that as we have discussed that some pages to issues 182-4 would have been done by Miller more than a year ago and obviously returned to him and Janson could still be working the procedure of following Miller layouts on 8 by 11 paper that was instituted with issue 181 on the pages that were added to issues 182-4. Therefore, Mitch would not get a complete book as Miller would get his pages back even though they were done many months ago but Janson could still be the only person that added anything new.

 

Others have said that the Punisher storyline was meant for issue 167 as a one part story. As said, my rationale is that they added pages to make up a two part story. Evidence to lend credence to my theory is given by Grand Comic Book Database that credits Roger McKenzie as the co writer for issue 183 and 184. Roger's last story on DD was issue 167 and after that he was done with the title, so they are obviously crediting him with both issues as they broke up the one issue and expanded into two. Now, the question is was the new art done by the process started in 181 or did Miller work on the same sheet as Janson? It's bending a little towards the former, but not a dunk yet.

[*]New information was presented by NelsonAl in a post on the CGC boards that indicated that he had photocopies of the pencils for issues 168 (described as "crappy") and DD issues 182 and 184. This really galvanized the conversation since it contradicted Klaus' statement.

[*] At the 2014 NYCC, Nelson and Gene discussed the issue with Klaus. Here's what Gene wrote:

A few of us talked at length with Klaus today on this subject. We had some #176 pages with us (that we know are Miller layouts on the board), I brought my #181 page (which was one of the issues that we weren't sure about) and Nelson brought a bunch of his photocopied Miller pencils with him as well. After reviewing the artwork and the photocopies, Klaus believes that the separate sheet layouts started with #185 after all. He said that his & Frank's artistic relationship was a progression, so that when Frank went to the separate sheet layouts, they never went back to layouts on board. As such, since we know from Nelson's archives that #182 and #184 were both Miller pencils on the board, we can deduce that #185 was the start of the separate sheet layouts.

 

Furthermore, Klaus said that the handwritten "DAREDEVIL" at the top of pages was written by Frank when he did pencils on the board (at some point this becomes "DAREDEVIL" using a rubber stamp). But, you'll notice from #185 that it became handwritten again - "DD #___" is what it says for a few issues before it becomes "Daredevil" written in -script. The latter is definitely confirmed to be Klaus' notation on pages done with separate sheet layouts, and it stands to reason that the former is also Klaus, as it's not Frank's writing. I think this bolsters the case for #185 being the start.

 

As for Klaus getting all of the #181 art back, he confirmed that sometimes they would trade off getting full books as opposed to splitting up the pages in each issue. So, even if he got the whole #181 book back, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank didn't do pencils on the board.

 

Bottom line: I'm satisfied at this point that any stylistic changes we see between #178 and #179-#184 is just the progression of the artwork over time and that separate sheet layouts did begin with #185 after all.

[*]One last comment on this from Gene. It includes the origin of the photocopies from Nelson.

Thanks to Nelson who brought photocopies of Miller's pencils to DD #182, 184 and Wolverine LS #1 to the show today. I don't know if he mentioned it before, but he found these at a garage or yard sale in Brooklyn - apparently the house was rented by a Marvel editor/staffer of some sort, who left behind all these photocopies which were then sold. Amazing that Nelson was able to recover these before they were lost to the world.

 

I can confirm that every page from DD #182 and #184 are finished Miller layouts directly on the board. There are a few of us who are going to try and track down Janson at the show tomorrow and show him that these issues were done directly on the board, and to see if there was a reason #179-#181 were done on separate sheet layouts or whether he was mistaken and these too were layouts directly on the board. I'm going to bring my DD #181 page and the TPB which features the issues in question as visual aids. So, hopefully we can get to the bottom of this tomorrow.

 

As for the Wolvie LS #1, they are definitely finished layouts on board as well. So, I don't know if Rubinstein was exaggerating the level of his involvement on this mini-series or if the later issues got progressively less detailed. But, as far as issue #1 goes, it is definitely detailed layouts and nothing even remotely close to loose shapes or squiggles.

[*]Comment from NelsonAI on 191 reads:

I have some copies of FM pencils from # 191. FM did detailed layouts not full pencils. Austin did finishes.

 

Edited by alxjhnsn
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Yeah, where did those comments (posts 2 and 3) about DD 181 not being touched by Miller resurface? I thought we'd successfully refuted that idea, no?

 

(here we go again...)

 

We did. I wish mtlevy and carlo would take down the posts between mine and the original one.

 

I've cited the original thread and provided the correct summary.

 

Sigh...

 

 

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I posted what I had recorded but looks like it was before a more current thread, edited it away from my original post and will update my Excel file - the difference was DD 181 and DD183. I don't have pages from those issues...

Edited by mtlevy
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I posted what I had recorded but looks like it was before a more current thread, edited it away from my original post and will update my Excel file - the difference was DD 181 and DD183. I don't have pages from those issues...

 

I thought that 183 was Miller art at it's prime, in that it was originally to be published as the "Child's Play" drug issue, teased as the next issue at the end of 166, but the CCA had issues, and it was shelved, only to reemerge and published as 183, at least in part if not maybe updated for the @ part story that concluded with 184.

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I posted what I had recorded but looks like it was before a more current thread, edited it away from my original post and will update my Excel file - the difference was DD 181 and DD183. I don't have pages from those issues...

Thanks. I really, really want to make sure everyone knows the best that we know so long after the fact. I believe that our results are well documented on the thread and in my summary so I appreciate your changing your reply.

 

My Daredevil 181 page definitely has Miller pencils underneath the Janson inks.

Michael, would you mind clarifying how you know that pencils were on your board? Did Klaus not erase them? I'd like to add this nugget to the summary that I keep (and to the thread cited above).

 

I'm glad it was cleared up that Miller did put pencil to the board and then those pencils were inked by Janson on DD 181.

Me, too.

 

I thought that 183 was Miller art at it's prime,

It is.

 

 

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On 7/22/2016 at 7:10 PM, alxjhnsn said:

Thanks. I really, really want to make sure everyone knows the best that we know so long after the fact. I believe that our results are well documented on the thread and in my summary so I appreciate your changing your reply.

 

 

Michael, would you mind clarifying how you know that pencils were on your board? Did Klaus not erase them? I'd like to add this nugget to the summary that I keep (and to the thread cited above).

 

 

Me, too.

 

 

It is.

 

 

Alex,

I have looked at the DD 181 page I own very closely and pencils are clearly seen under the inks and outside the inks, where they weren't erased. The pencils are most evident in the knee/leg of Bullseye as he runs out of the room in the last panel, in Foggy's hair and in Matt's hand in the next-to-last panel and in Bullseye's hand in the third tier panel.

I do believe these are Miller pencils under the Janson inks.

I cannot imagine why Janson would do pencils if he lightboxed this page.

dd181pg31.jpg

dd181pg31a.JPG

dd181pg31b.JPG

dd181pg31c.JPG

dd181pg31d.JPG

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5 hours ago, Michael Browning said:

Alex,

I have looked at the DD 181 page I own very closely and pencils are clearly seen under the inks and outside the inks, where they weren't erased. The pencils are most evident in the knee/leg of Bullseye as he runs out of the room in the last panel, in Foggy's hair and in Matt's hand in the next-to-last panel and in Bullseye's hand in the third tier panel.

I do believe these are Miller pencils under the Janson inks.

I cannot imagine why Janson would do pencils if he lightboxed this page.

dd181pg31.jpg

dd181pg31a.JPG

dd181pg31b.JPG

dd181pg31c.JPG

dd181pg31d.JPG

I don't have a clue as to Miller ever touching this page or not.  I just want to say that I myself always ink directly over actual pencils (not lightbox or blue line) and anytime I want to refine something that isn't clear in those pencils prior to my committing to ink, I go in with a pencil to tighten and clarify what I want to do before inking.  I doubt that I am the only one who does this. The pencils you see on this DD 181 page might be Miller, or they might be Janson's.  The fact that they are there doesn't really prove anything IMHO.

Scott

 

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40 minutes ago, stinkininkin said:

I don't have a clue as to Miller ever touching this page or not.  I just want to say that I myself always ink directly over actual pencils (not lightbox or blue line) and anytime I want to refine something that isn't clear in those pencils prior to my committing to ink, I go in with a pencil to tighten and clarify what I want to do before inking.  I doubt that I am the only one who does this. The pencils you see on this DD 181 page might be Miller, or they might be Janson's.  The fact that they are there doesn't really prove anything IMHO.

Scott

 

No Miller pencils on this whole book. Klaus enlarged Frank's 8 x 11 layouts, so there had to be pencil on the board. Just not Frank's in this case. I know this as I was Klaus's agent and remember seeing a lot of Miller's layout on typing paper for Klaus.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.

MI

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2 hours ago, artdealer said:

No Miller pencils on this whole book. Klaus enlarged Frank's 8 x 11 layouts, so there had to be pencil on the board. Just not Frank's in this case. I know this as I was Klaus's agent and remember seeing a lot of Miller's layout on typing paper for Klaus.

Sorry to burst anyone's bubble.

MI

Mitch, according to the info gathered from Klaus in 2014 and as noted in Alex's research, the separate sheets didn't start until 184.

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On 6/24/2017 at 4:50 PM, Flambit said:

Just to be clear: Miller did pencil all the covers, correct?  

And Janson inked all but 158 and 191?  

No, Miller inked himself on the #176 cover.  I talked to the guy (a dealer) who bought the #176 cover from Frank (but who sold it long ago) and he said that Miller charged slightly less for the #176 cover than the others as he was less confident about his inking ability.  

Whether the story is true or not (I have no reason to doubt it; I was told other specifics about the deal/story but have forgotten at this point), both Comics.org and Marvel Wikia also list Miller as the sole artist for #176.  So that much is not in doubt. 

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