General discussion thread - keep the other threads clean

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There was a seller whose fees were included

His shipping and 3 percent not excluded

He was asked why

And made this reply

Because the math would be too convoluted

 

My first and most likely only attempt at a limerick.

 

 

 

 

You win the internet today.

Dagobah?

 

Would this mean that Hector is riding on CAK's back???

 

Wasn't there a post a few pages back that said adding a surcharge to use Paypal is a violation of their TOS?

 

Yes, and while Paypal cannot prevent the cost being made invisible in the seller's asking price, I think it shows that Paypal at least understands the negative psychology of a "+3% for Paypal". Who wants their particular service associated with an added expense?

 

It's the same TOS for regular credit cards in brick and mortar stores - by agreeing to the convenience of accepting credit card payments, Visa/MasterCard etc. require that you not pass that fee along to the consumers as an additional surcharge. (you can jack up your sticker prices of your goods to cover it the anticipated costs however, no one is stopping you)

 

Small time sellers should be grateful that such a service is even available to them at all; it levels the playing field online.

 

Those who don't want to lose the 3% should build it in and offer a 3% discount for payments by check or money order, or else just pocket the 3% if someone pays that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was changed last year. Starting in January, retailers can pass on a credit card fee of up to 4% to Visa and MasterCard users. Now there is no reason that they should, as they've already baked the cost of doing business into their fees, but if Amazon etc. keep eating into their profit margin, then maybe you will start to see more of these charges (or moves like Walmart to incentivize their customers to use a house account rather than a "foreign" card.) http://www.reuters.com/article/us-visa-mastercard-settlement-idUSKCN0RS2DH20150928

 

Thanks for that!

It's never black and white, Ed. Fair price is a fair price. It's just that when I see someone try and squeeze every nickel out of a book, I'm turned off. It's totally psychological.

FTR, I'd pick option 2.

Have a great week.

 

It goes beyond psychological to me. If they're trying to squeeze every nickle out of the book perhaps there will be other issues. Over grade a raw book, package poorly, fight a return, who knows.

 

Hey, a seller can price a book any way he wants and specify the terms but I don't like the optics of a 3% paypal fee and I click out.

 

But, wait a minute...in this discussion, you are equating (A) someone who happens to specify the terms with an explicit additional 3% fee for using PayPal with (B) someone who is trying to squeeze every nickel out of a book.

 

That's just not true. A can exist without B, or B can exist without A.

 

Stated differently (I love hypotheticals): If I offered, say, a Tales of Suspense #39 CGC 6.5 OW/W for "$5,500, add 3% if using PayPal"...would you really click out and say to yourself..."look at that SOB trying to squeeze every nickel out of that book"?

 

This subject is fascinating, every time we discuss it.

 

Well, there is this from PP's terms:

 

4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

 

So a seller asking for the extra 3% is doing something he promised PP he would not do.

 

I think we have a lot of new sellers who scan existing sales threads and think "A lot of people are asking for the +3%, so I may as well."

 

And maybe I'm imagining it, but the people who are pricing at 20% or more above GPA seem to be the ones most likely to ask for the +3%.

It's never black and white, Ed. Fair price is a fair price. It's just that when I see someone try and squeeze every nickel out of a book, I'm turned off. It's totally psychological.

FTR, I'd pick option 2.

Have a great week.

 

It goes beyond psychological to me. If they're trying to squeeze every nickle out of the book perhaps there will be other issues. Over grade a raw book, package poorly, fight a return, who knows.

 

Hey, a seller can price a book any way he wants and specify the terms but I don't like the optics of a 3% paypal fee and I click out.

 

But, wait a minute...in this discussion, you are equating (A) someone who happens to specify the terms with an explicit additional 3% fee for using PayPal with (B) someone who is trying to squeeze every nickel out of a book.

 

That's just not true. A can exist without B, or B can exist without A.

 

Stated differently (I love hypotheticals): If I offered, say, a Tales of Suspense #39 CGC 6.5 OW/W for "$5,500, add 3% if using PayPal"...would you really click out and say to yourself..."look at that SOB trying to squeeze every nickel out of that book"?

 

This subject is fascinating, every time we discuss it.

 

Well, there is this from PP's terms:

 

4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

 

So a seller asking for the extra 3% is doing something he promised PP he would not do.

 

I think we have a lot of new sellers who scan existing sales threads and think "A lot of people are asking for the +3%, so I may as well."

 

And maybe I'm imagining it, but the people who are pricing at 20% or more above GPA seem to be the ones most likely to ask for the +3%.

 

Bingo

Well, there is this from PP's terms:

 

4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

 

So a seller asking for the extra 3% is doing something he promised PP he would not do.

 

I think we have a lot of new sellers who scan existing sales threads and think "A lot of people are asking for the +3%, so I may as well."

 

And maybe I'm imagining it, but the people who are pricing at 20% or more above GPA seem to be the ones most likely to ask for the +3%.

 

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

I was just responding to the philosophical point about avoiding +3% sales threads because they're greedy (or something along those lines), prima facie. My point was that someone can be greedy without stating +3%, or someone can be generous even if they state +3%.

 

I click out of sales threads where people are behaving offensively, regardless how their stated sales terms are configured. In other words, if someone is pricing here at 20% over GPA, I'll click straight out of that, regardless whether they state +3% or not. In other words, it's the +20% above GPA that is offensive, not the simple fact that they configure their asking price in the +3% format. Those two things may be correlated, but they're technically distinct issues.

 

Now...your "terms of service" point is another matter. IF someone said something like "I refuse to buy from sales threads that state +3% because that violates the PayPal terms of service, and I don't want to buy from a sales thread that is violating the PayPal terms of service," I can get on board with that.

 

But that's not why people were saying that they avoid the +3% threads.

The 3% adder is often an advertisement that the seller will take PP personal from anyone. As such, they generally go in the "less than scrupulous" category for me.

when did 3% become 4%?

Throwing up a book for 1K and asking for another $30 makes the math look petty.

 

Not this again.

 

Would it be better to just list the book initially for $1,030 and not mention anything about PayPal? Would that make everyone feel better?

 

Or, list the book for $1,030 initially and say "2.9% discount if you pay via check" (again with no mention of PayPal). Would that make everyone feel better?

 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter to me how you break it down whether it is PP fees or buyers premium or free shipping, it is the bottom line price I look at. In fact I kind of avoid 'free shipping' on some venues (eBay). Nothing like getting a slab in an envelope - "but hey its free"

 

I'm with you on that. I bid on an inexpensive book on eBay once that had free shipping. I bid something like 20 bucks, but I was the only bidder, so I won at the starting bid of $5. Book came First Class in an envelope, nothing more. Seller said, "Hey, it was 5 bucks with free shipping, what did you expect?" I expected you to spend the extra 20 cents it would have cost to put a couple pieces of cardboard in.

It doesn't matter to me how you break it down whether it is PP fees or buyers premium or free shipping, it is the bottom line price I look at. In fact I kind of avoid 'free shipping' on some venues (eBay). Nothing like getting a slab in an envelope - "but hey its free"

 

I'm with you on that. I bid on an inexpensive book on eBay once that had free shipping. I bid something like 20 bucks, but I was the only bidder, so I won at the starting bid of $5. Book came First Class in an envelope, nothing more. Seller said, "Hey, it was 5 bucks with free shipping, what did you expect?" I expected you to spend the extra 20 cents it would have cost to put a couple pieces of cardboard in.

 

I don't even leave it to chance now. Unless they specifically state how they ship I always ask and then I almost always offer extra money for better packaging.

It doesn't matter to me how you break it down whether it is PP fees or buyers premium or free shipping, it is the bottom line price I look at. In fact I kind of avoid 'free shipping' on some venues (eBay). Nothing like getting a slab in an envelope - "but hey its free"

 

I'm with you on that. I bid on an inexpensive book on eBay once that had free shipping. I bid something like 20 bucks, but I was the only bidder, so I won at the starting bid of $5. Book came First Class in an envelope, nothing more. Seller said, "Hey, it was 5 bucks with free shipping, what did you expect?" I expected you to spend the extra 20 cents it would have cost to put a couple pieces of cardboard in.

 

I don't even leave it to chance now. Unless they specifically state how they ship I always ask and then I almost always offer extra money for better packaging.

 

 

 

There was a seller whose fees were included

His shipping and 3 percent not excluded

He was asked why

And made this reply

Because the math would be too convoluted

 

My first and most likely only attempt at a limerick.

 

 

 

 

The boardie was selling a book

And thought he had quite a good hook.

He added a fee

A percent of just three

But no one would give it a look.

It doesn't matter to me how you break it down whether it is PP fees or buyers premium or free shipping, it is the bottom line price I look at. In fact I kind of avoid 'free shipping' on some venues (eBay). Nothing like getting a slab in an envelope - "but hey its free"

 

I'm with you on that. I bid on an inexpensive book on eBay once that had free shipping. I bid something like 20 bucks, but I was the only bidder, so I won at the starting bid of $5. Book came First Class in an envelope, nothing more. Seller said, "Hey, it was 5 bucks with free shipping, what did you expect?" I expected you to spend the extra 20 cents it would have cost to put a couple pieces of cardboard in.

 

I don't even leave it to chance now. Unless they specifically state how they ship I always ask and then I almost always offer extra money for better packaging.

 

 

Yes, I have gotten to the point where I don't feel comfortable knowing that it would have been cheaper and easier for the seller to have simply torn the book up and thrown it in the trash, rather than listing it and selling it.

 

"$5 with free shipping" means the seller lost money.

 

And the cardboard pads I use cost a minimum of 26 cents each, and I use 2-4, at least, in each package. I'm not sure how to get good cardboard for only a 20 cent cost, whether in charge or labor.

 

What size and thickness do you use? I buy in bulk and it's under .20 a sheet, but you may use better quality stuff than I do.

I think it is a silly rule by paypal. Its going to happen one way or another.

On the 3% issue? I won't buy in a sales thread that requires me to pay extra for using a certain form of payment. The same way that I would actively avoid gas stations that used to charge extra or have a different price for credit card payments (that's still a thing some places).

 

I don't mind if it's built into the price, since I'm not paying in any other way than paypal to anyone (unless I'm buying in-person). I realize that credit card processing fees are built into the cost of everything from a candy bar to the 65" flat screen at Best Buy these days. I just don't like it being rubbed in my face that "I'm going to charge you more because you're paying with this for of payment instead of this other form of payment"

 

Emphasis on the bolded text

Yeah but given the two scenarios below, you're not paying more either way

Asking price = $1,030

Asking price = $1,000 + 3%

 

I get it that people don't like it rubbed in their face but at the end of the day, you're paying the exact same amount. Being accepting of paying the extra if it's built in as opposed to the 3% add on has always seemed a little irrational to me. It's like saying that I don't mind paying more as long as it's invisible. Huh? Again, ignorance is bliss I guess. I don't know about you guys but I don't like paying more regardless of whether I know it or not.

 

 

 

 

I don't know... I don't really think about it that much. Just something about it bugs me & I think to myself "Nope. Next?" as a result. I can't exactly explain it. Just something about it bugs me. Maybe it's the "seeing the sausage being made" or something. I don't can't really explain it.

 

Just like my initial gut reactions is negative to seeing it be spelled out explicitly, that I pass right then & there rather than buy it and not feel as good about the price, if that makes any sense? Even if it's a good price with all those fees included. my initial negative feeling on seeing it spelled out is going to stick with me every time I look at that book. And I don't really want to associate a book that I really wanted & like having with a negative experience or a "well, look at the silver lining, it was still a pretty good deal" .. it's still gonna have that little bit of "dude wanted me to pay his freaking paypal fees" negative feeling muddying my otherwise enjoyment of having that book in my collection.

 

Does that make sense? I mean, I don't expect you to agree or anything. Just wanted to see if you could understand what I mean.

 

I don't really understand that. However, you certainly don't need to justify it to me, or anyone. If you don't want to deal with sellers who do this, that's your choice. Most of us probably have been rubbed the wrong way about a seller at some time in our lives.

It doesn't matter to me how you break it down whether it is PP fees or buyers premium or free shipping, it is the bottom line price I look at. In fact I kind of avoid 'free shipping' on some venues (eBay). Nothing like getting a slab in an envelope - "but hey its free"

 

I'm with you on that. I bid on an inexpensive book on eBay once that had free shipping. I bid something like 20 bucks, but I was the only bidder, so I won at the starting bid of $5. Book came First Class in an envelope, nothing more. Seller said, "Hey, it was 5 bucks with free shipping, what did you expect?" I expected you to spend the extra 20 cents it would have cost to put a couple pieces of cardboard in.

 

I don't even leave it to chance now. Unless they specifically state how they ship I always ask and then I almost always offer extra money for better packaging.

 

 

Yes, I have gotten to the point where I don't feel comfortable knowing that it would have been cheaper and easier for the seller to have simply torn the book up and thrown it in the trash, rather than listing it and selling it.

 

"$5 with free shipping" means the seller lost money.

 

And the cardboard pads I use cost a minimum of 26 cents each, and I use 2-4, at least, in each package. I'm not sure how to get good cardboard for only a 20 cent cost, whether in charge or labor.

 

What size and thickness do you use? I buy in bulk and it's under .20 a sheet, but you may use better quality stuff than I do.

 

 

 

It doesn't matter to me how you break it down whether it is PP fees or buyers premium or free shipping, it is the bottom line price I look at. In fact I kind of avoid 'free shipping' on some venues (eBay). Nothing like getting a slab in an envelope - "but hey its free"

 

I'm with you on that. I bid on an inexpensive book on eBay once that had free shipping. I bid something like 20 bucks, but I was the only bidder, so I won at the starting bid of $5. Book came First Class in an envelope, nothing more. Seller said, "Hey, it was 5 bucks with free shipping, what did you expect?" I expected you to spend the extra 20 cents it would have cost to put a couple pieces of cardboard in.

 

I don't even leave it to chance now. Unless they specifically state how they ship I always ask and then I almost always offer extra money for better packaging.

 

Yes, I have gotten to the point where I don't feel comfortable knowing that it would have been cheaper and easier for the seller to have simply torn the book up and thrown it in the trash, rather than listing it and selling it.

 

"$5 with free shipping" means the seller lost money.

 

And the cardboard pads I use cost a minimum of 26 cents each, and I use 2-4, at least, in each package. I'm not sure how to get good cardboard for only a 20 cent cost, whether in charge or labor.

 

I was talking postage costs, not for the cardboard. It was an inexpensive book, I didn't expect anyone to use 2-4 pieces of "good cardboard" that they bought, just something to keep it from being folded in half and shoved in my mailbox.

 

And, yes, selling something for $5 with free shipping is pretty close to losing money, but the answer isn't poor shipping, it's not listing things for a minimum bid of $5 with free shipping.

Well, there is this from PP's terms:

 

4.5 No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions.

 

So a seller asking for the extra 3% is doing something he promised PP he would not do.

 

I think we have a lot of new sellers who scan existing sales threads and think "A lot of people are asking for the +3%, so I may as well."

 

And maybe I'm imagining it, but the people who are pricing at 20% or more above GPA seem to be the ones most likely to ask for the +3%.

 

I don't disagree with any of this.

 

I was just responding to the philosophical point about avoiding +3% sales threads because they're greedy (or something along those lines), prima facie. My point was that someone can be greedy without stating +3%, or someone can be generous even if they state +3%.

 

True in principle, but probably a rare bird to find in the wild.

 

I think you are quite right that it's mainly a matter of perception (or optics, as RMA put it). Some buyers are thinking, "It's not enough that he's getting out of paying the eBay/CLink/CC/HA fee by selling on the boards; he's also got to stick me with the PP fee?"

 

And I think you are also right that most people aren't aware of that provision in the PP TOS.

Wasn't there a post a few pages back that said adding a surcharge to use Paypal is a violation of their TOS?

 

Yes, and while Paypal cannot prevent the cost being made invisible in the seller's asking price, I think it shows that Paypal at least understands the negative psychology of a "+3% for Paypal". Who wants their particular service associated with an added expense?

 

It's the same TOS for regular credit cards in brick and mortar stores - by agreeing to the convenience of accepting credit card payments, Visa/MasterCard etc. require that you not pass that fee along to the consumers as an additional surcharge. (you can jack up your sticker prices of your goods to cover it the anticipated costs however, no one is stopping you)

 

Small time sellers should be grateful that such a service is even available to them at all; it levels the playing field online.

 

Those who don't want to lose the 3% should build it in and offer a 3% discount for payments by check or money order, or else just pocket the 3% if someone pays that way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was changed last year. Starting in January, retailers can pass on a credit card fee of up to 4% to Visa and MasterCard users. Now there is no reason that they should, as they've already baked the cost of doing business into their fees, but if Amazon etc. keep eating into their profit margin, then maybe you will start to see more of these charges (or moves like Walmart to incentivize their customers to use a house account rather than a "foreign" card.) http://www.reuters.com/article/us-visa-mastercard-settlement-idUSKCN0RS2DH20150928

I am reading something entirely different. Since many retailers opted out of the class action, there is no deal for those retailers. In addition, there seems to be no limit on new conditions the credit card companies may apply. In other words this does nothing, but reach into one pocket instead of the other.

And a lawyer who helped broker the deal was hauled away in cuffs.