Wisdom of 'focused collecting' and 'sharing' ... (ROM, Spaceknight)

0

Hello all,

I've made it public knowledge on CAF and here that I'm trying to assemble an issue of ROM Spaceknight. Making some progress over the years, and was delighted to have a page turn up last week on Ebay.

Won the auction tonight, but was deeply disappointed to have two bidders run up the price in the final seconds to twice what the page should have gone for. From what I can tell, neither have been active in recent bidding for ROM pages. Confident they were not seller shill bidders, the seller handles art fairly rarely.

Can't help but worry that my openness is an expensive drawback.

(...and if my two underbidders happen to be reading this... guys! Geez! Have a heart! If you really need a ROM page that much, drop me a line and we'll see if I can fix you up with a page that'll cost you much less than what you were willing to pay tonight.)

Andrew

Andrew,

Sorry to hear that. I understand where you are coming from. I have been wanting to complete FF 286 and that has been public knowledge for years. Yes it can be a double edge sword but I look at the positive. I have had a number of collectors contact me to either offer me a page from the issue or point out one is up for sale or auction.

It is a double edged sword, there will be some cases where pieces will be brought to your attention if not brought specifically to market just for you, especially something as niche as ROM which isn't so mainstream nor popular enough to in most cases garner strong attention and rate hikes. I'd hope the marketplace would be kind to collectors like you other than a few of the key pieces by specific artists or the X-Men appearance issues that crosses over into what a lot of others collects. But, then again, all it takes is 2 for a bidding war, and ROM isn't so undesirable so to speak and isn't without fans (my brother loved the series growing up), and the problem is, if you're helping flush out the material and putting the spotlight on 'em, others attentions may be drawn where otherwise you could have navigated the marketplace with greater stealth in having more exclusive opportunities.

Similarly, just like being a public gallery type vs a black hole collector, there's a lot of pros and cons to showing your cards. I know a lot of collectors who have key pieces that don't want their identities nor possessions revealed. The public gallery types argue, it's something to share (not necessarily brag about boastfully as the intent of telling) and even let it be known to attract potential pie in the sky sales/trade offers from other collectors. Whereas the black hole collectors just want to remain discreet in what they are hunting for and what they possess, assuming that "nothing to gain, everything to lose" perspective of either drawing attention to what they want or what they own (from the ownership perspective, to them it's like walking down the street wearing a Rolex with your sleeves rolled up or covered, fearing possible theft).

I think there's a fine balance between the two schools. Personally in auction situations, if a friend of mine is going after a piece I'm mildly interested in, I'd like to know, so I can back off the bidding and abstain to let 'em acquire it. I often confer with friends during auctions to ensure we're not bidding against each other out of courtesy and camaraderie. If there's a piece we both want, we'll confer on who wants it most then it'll be decided in advance who's bidding and who's sitting on the sidelines.

It is a double edged sword, there will be some cases where pieces will be brought to your attention if not brought specifically to market just for you, especially something as niche as ROM which isn't so mainstream nor popular enough to in most cases garner strong attention and rate hikes. I'd hope the marketplace would be kind to collectors like you other than a few of the key pieces by specific artists or the X-Men appearance issues that crosses over into what a lot of others collects. But, then again, all it takes is 2 for a bidding war, and ROM isn't so undesirable so to speak and isn't without fans (my brother loved the series growing up), and the problem is, if you're helping flush out the material and putting the spotlight on 'em, others attentions may be drawn where otherwise you could have navigated the marketplace with greater stealth in having more exclusive opportunities.

 

Similarly, just like being a public gallery type vs a black hole collector, there's a lot of pros and cons to showing your cards. I know a lot of collectors who have key pieces that don't want their identities nor possessions revealed. The public gallery types argue, it's something to share (not necessarily brag about boastfully as the intent of telling) and even let it be known to attract potential pie in the sky sales/trade offers from other collectors. Whereas the black hole collectors just want to remain discreet in what they are hunting for and what they possess, assuming that "nothing to gain, everything to lose" perspective of either drawing attention to what they want or what they own (from the ownership perspective, to them it's like walking down the street wearing a Rolex with your sleeves rolled up or covered, fearing possible theft).

 

I think there's a fine balance between the two schools. Personally in auction situations, if a friend of mine is going after a piece I'm mildly interested in, I'd like to know, so I can back off the bidding and abstain to let 'em acquire it. I often confer with friends during auctions to ensure we're not bidding against each other out of courtesy and camaraderie. If there's a piece we both want, we'll confer on who wants it most then it'll be decided in advance who's bidding and who's sitting on the sidelines.

 

+1. I think it all depends on how many doors have been opened for you by folks knowing about your goal. Picked up pages you might otherwise have not found if others didn't know about your plans to re-assemble the issue? That all goes into the cost-benefit analysis on your approach.

Hello all,

 

I've made it public knowledge on CAF and here that I'm trying to assemble an issue of ROM Spaceknight. Making some progress over the years, and was delighted to have a page turn up last week on Ebay.

 

Won the auction tonight, but was deeply disappointed to have two bidders run up the price in the final seconds to twice what the page should have gone for. From what I can tell, neither have been active in recent bidding for ROM pages. Confident they were not seller shill bidders, the seller handles art fairly rarely.

 

Can't help but worry that my openness is an expensive drawback.

 

(...and if my two underbidders happen to be reading this... guys! Geez! Have a heart! If you really need a ROM page that much, drop me a line and we'll see if I can fix you up with a page that'll cost you much less than what you were willing to pay tonight.)

 

Andrew

This sucks and I feel for you, but...do you believe the other bidders bid this piece up because they knew you wanted it? Did they bid out of spite?

Or are they just other fans who also happened to want this page?

I haven't seen the listing or bidding history, but if they both bid in the final seconds, that means they sniped it...which, to me, means that were trying to win it and not run up the price (for them or anyone else).

Maybe not much of a consolation, but at least it wouldn't have been anything malicious.

I was told a horrible tale by an owner the vast majority of pages and covers to a 4-issue BA book that once word got out that he was buying everything, he was routinely victimized by shilling auctions, people buying pieces and then flipping them to him at 2-3X the cost, sellers going back on their sales once they found out it was he who was buying them, etc. It was a really sad story that clearly left him very jaded (which I don't blame him) - and while I try to take everything with a grain of salt, I also don't feel he gained anything by embellishment.

I think this hobby is like every other hobby in that there are people and transactions that can ruin it for you.

well the OP put it best, the more focussed your collecting the more you have to lose from people screwing with you.

One can be super open about collecting Jack Kirby pages because its impossible to corner the market. Being open about collecting something very specific is a dicier proposition. Particularly if its low or mid value stuff. If you're focussed on very specific 20k or 50k pages, people can still screw with you, but everyone is going to think about it twice when its a large sum of money. They may well not want to bid on that 50k page at all for fear they get stuck with it. Sellers may get especially greedy in this situation but then again, due to the money involved their tune may change when you walk away.

Overall I'd say low to mid market, low supply, specific interest material is the stuff you have to be most cautious about sharing your info on. A specific issue of Rom *is* kind of in that wheelhouse Even people that *aren't* trying to screw with you and simply want the item themselves may simply bid higher because they know they have to compete with a motivated bidder (you!).

This sucks and I feel for you, but...do you believe the other bidders bid this piece up because they knew you wanted it? Did they bid out of spite?

 

Or are they just other fans who also happened to want this page?

 

I haven't seen the listing or bidding history, but if they both bid in the final seconds, that means they sniped it...which, to me, means that were trying to win it and not run up the price (for them or anyone else).

 

Maybe not much of a consolation, but at least it wouldn't have been anything malicious.

Nexus,

Thanks for your calming words. I'd been coming around to that conclusion myself this morning. In 'the heat of the moment' it's difficult to not take things personally.

If they were trying to just 'run up the price' they were running quite a risk by multiple-sniping in the final seconds. Frantic sniping does strongly suggest fan desires, but the bidding also indicates experience with OA, and in particular the ROM niche market. A typical Sal ROM page can go for around $600-$800 or so, and their sniping was aimed at twice that. They knew what they were doing. Luckily in this instance I'd anticipated that possibility, though the future cost implications cast grim shadows over the possibility of my completing the book.

You gently (and justly) called me out on my ever-so-slight paranoia (), but since it's been brought up, I'm curious: have people actually encountered 'spite' bidders? I would hope it would be rare, but Ebay privacy policy makes it pretty hard to prove these days. Anyone have stories?

Thanks!

(thumbs u

It happens, but you're right, Felix had an excellent point

There is also the issue of supply and demand. If you decide to be a niche collector and corner a market then you can only expect that the few pieces that are left out there will get more and more expensive. I envy some of things that the niche collators own and I am definitely willing to pay more for those pages when they come to market now.

Andrew you positively have a great collection but you have chosen a hard road for yourself. I wish you luck but it's only going to get harder.

Now where are all those bronze age Spider-Woman and She Hulk pages?

I'm curious: have people actually encountered 'spite' bidders? Anyone have stories?

 

I know I've heard that there's a few collectors who have bought a certain artist's (mainly new not yet established artists who are recognized by not widely collected) work that want to see the prices maintained but sometimes have little interest pieces that come to market bid them up to either cost average their collection of that artist, blending in the cheap with the expensive or do bid on pieces in hopes it increases the perceived values of their own pieces all while not bidding without the intent of paying if they win, but hoping they do get outbid and the prices climb.

Felix is definitely on the right track I think.

We often decide the motivations of other people we have never met and do not know at all. In this thread the OP believes strongly that "they knew what they were doing" but really any evidence seems circumstantial and even just conjecture. (not trying to bash OP, I do it too on auctions. I even take it personally when people do NOT bid and imagine their thoughts/motivations! You can't win if you are me sometimes!)

Even if these (2?) bidders "knew what they were doing", what did they know? that it was you? that this issue was more desirable but did not know why? For example, I only recently learned about the hubbub around the art for Wolverine 10. When I read the comic back in the day I did not feel that issue was any more or less significant in the series than any other but maybe I was just less discerning. But when I recently bid on a page from Wolverine 10 I noticed weird things and eventually just asked what the deal was; Scott Williams clued me in that it is commonly accepted as "the" issue. That started with someone I would guess, but it spread from that person/people to the general zeitgeist.

I was just talking to a dealer the other day and being on THIS message board provides me with so much esoteric info. I know people like Axa, wherever that strip runs is unknown to me. I know about different size art pages for WD and have never held an issue or sought to buy the art. I know there are Preacher nuts and that certain things on those pages make the pages more desireable. Saint of Killers or whomever bites people, right? And that is cool to own, right?

I don't know who any of those people are, don't know their names or screen names or how many of them there are. But I see the chatter and when I was talking to that dealer I was tempted to buy some of those things I mentioned above even though it would only be in the hope of flipping them for some profit. I didn't (I'll flip things I did get though), but I considered it.

My belabored point is: I never win when I play these mind games. Stick to facts and try to see the best in other people. Just because it is a rough game does not make it a mean game. Your wants are no more important than their wants to anyone but you. I caught flack as a Starman hoarder and also got some props along the way, but those people are all entitled to those opinions and their own desire for the art.

Now get out of my way in the clink auction and let me have the good stuff! I am a bigger fan and want it more! Really! ;-)

edited to add: Good Luck with your ROM issue!

err.. so what is the significance of Wolverine issue 10? Is it Sabretooth related?

As for the original topic, yeah, I tend to keep things close to vest. Not from experience but it just seems logical. Anyone who looks at my CAF gallery knows what I collect, but there are a few issues I thought would be fun to put together and they are not on my CAF.

Malvin

Wolverine #10 has his "1st" fight between Logan and Sabretooth.

FWIW, I've bid on several Sal Buscema ROM pages (never won any) and they have all finished higher than what I anticicipated a Sal page from that era would. I think ROM has a significant cult following

There is also the issue of supply and demand. If you decide to be a niche collector and corner a market then you can only expect that the few pieces that are left out there will get more and more expensive. I envy some of things that the niche collators own and I am definitely willing to pay more for those pages when they come to market now.

 

Andrew you positively have a great collection but you have chosen a hard road for yourself. I wish you luck but it's only going to get harder.

Actually, I've been considering the 'difficulty' aspect of ROM collecting.

And I've come to the (perhaps slightly self-centered) conclusion that it's in the best interest of other ROM collectors to help me out with completing the book I've chosen.

Why, you might ask? For one good reason that I probably haven't made particularly clear. My primary focus in ROM is completing the Annual, and pretty much every ROM-based transaction of mine is in furtherance of that goal. Either pages from the book, or potential tradebait for dealing for more pages from the book. (Or perhaps the cover, should that ever surface)

Practical upshot: If I were to actually manage to complete the book, I'd be free to stop collecting ROM, and cease competing for pages from that title.

I don't know if there's an elegant way to communicate that, though.

... I'd be free to stop collecting ROM, and cease competing for pages from that title.

I can stop any time I want to! Honest!

My knee jerk reaction is to say, "You have to be willing to let anything go." But then I can imagine how frustrating it must be to have all but a few pages to a complete book.  You either don't know where they are, or worse, someone is sitting on them to spite you.  And you never know what will happen!  I had made peace with letting my personal grail go, only to find it surface at random for a FMV opportunity.

I have a number of different loves in OA, but I've recently started collecting Top Ten art: the story meant a lot to me and it's generally pretty affordable.  It's crossed my mind to try and complete an issue, but I doubt it will ever happen.  The pages are too scattered, so I count myself fortunate to have what I have and I'll just buy a page here or there when I can.  It scratches the collection itch without breaking the bank.  And I have to say, everyone here has been awesome in pointing me towards various pieces and opportunities, everyone has been very gracious about offering help.

The other nice thing about Top Ten is, while I love it, I can't really be held hostage.  I found three interior pages on caf for sale, with the price listed as "Please Inquire," so I did.   These have to be the highest prices I've ever heard quoted for any Gene Ha interior artwork anywhere.  So I'm quite happy with the idea of never owning these pages.  

14 hours ago, Flambit said:

You either don't know where they are, or worse, someone is sitting on them to spite you. 

And while the above may happen, I suspect Bird is more correct in his points stressing that it has nothing to do with either of those things. This stuff is a matter of perceptions/perspectives. Because someone has set themselves a goal could make no difference to the other person who indirectly is standing in the way of it's success. And that obstacle is more than likely not an intentionally personal one.

It is entirely plausible (I'd argue even more likely), that someone that owns or buys a single page to a book might just want that page. I have many single pages from different titles. I've had some of them for more than 20 years. If I found out someone had come along and spent the last 10 or 15 years trying to assemble that book, I'd be as inclined to sell my single page to that person as I would to sell any other piece I've held onto for years. Which is to say, I'd tell them I'm not interested. Make me high offers, I don't care. It's not always about money (until it is). But that decision to keep what is mine is NOT to spite anyone. It's not because I am being an or attempting to bilk anyone. I am a fan, and that piece has as much or more interest for me as it might for the guy trying to complete the book.

All kinds of things get tied up in these OA purchases. All of my art has one story or another. Especially because I don't ever buy art to sit on, or flip or trade for profit or giggles. That just isn't in my DNA. If I see something I know someone else will be into, I contact that other individual and give them the heads up so they can snag it themselves. What I buy, I buy because I plan to keep and enjoy a piece long term, and for whatever meaning it has for me.  Whether it's a whole book or a single page.

The idea that someone is putting a book together and all others should compromise or step out of the way rings as a bit self absorbed and entitled to me.
Better to approach the task with eyes wide open, fingers crossed, and ready to take on any and all competition.

Any anyone putting together a scattered book has my sympathies. It seems like a real challenge. Especially as the OA market and the art in it seems to get ever more dispersed.

I also see both sides of the equation on this. I actively seek pages from Hulk 227 and have had a great experience where a fellow collector pointed me in the direction of a page that I was able to secure. I also became aware of a page that was listed at several multiples of FMV with an increasing price per inquiry. Needles to say, I bought one page and passed on the other. 

I am attempting to put a full book together and have left it off CAF until I am successful or give up the hunt. I also seek pages from another story arc and am much less public about it