1st Teen Titans

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So if OAAW 81 can read "The Rock of Easy Co" on the front cover, have the dude that would later be universally recognized as Sgt Rock on the cover and still be considered a prototype how the heck can you justify BB 54 as a first appearance when the Teen Titans are mentioned nowhere in the issue?

The world is introduced to the Teen Titans (Splash page BB 60) in the exact same paragraph as it is introduced to Wonder Girl. One has never been without the other. All the doctored DC reprints in the world won't change that.

Im laughing here at the idea of a serious discussion when the "evidence" shown is some crude drawings of a "separated Man": a floating mouth eye and hand!!

what a weird hobby we love!

Truly Astounding!

Echoing the above, both canon & canonical have long since moved beyond their strict Biblical meanings. First instance, most purists don't consider the Aliens v. Predator movies canon.

Many words have multiple meanings in the dictionary, but I believe you are using canon as a noun. The wiki author uses "canonical" as an adjective to describe the very nature of our debate in it's traditional form.

Noun or verb, they both have widely-accepted (and secular) secondary meanings. And the author's use in this case is totally secular.

Here are the Merriam-Webster definitions:

Canon (noun)

3 - a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works

Canonical (adj.)

3 - of or relating to the group of books, plays, poems, etc., that are traditionally considered to be very important

So if OAAW 81 can read "The Rock of Easy Co" on the front cover, have the dude that would later be universally recognized as Sgt Rock on the cover and still be considered a prototype how the heck can you justify BB 54 as a first appearance when the Teen Titans are mentioned nowhere in the issue?

 

 

The world is introduced to the Teen Titans (Splash page BB 60) in the exact same paragraph as it is introduced to Wonder Girl. One has never been without the other. All the doctored DC reprints in the world won't change that.

 

 

An excellent argument. The problem we have with this hobby is that arbitrariness is prevalent. Decisions were made decades ago that we're based on conjecture and/or perhaps motivated by an interest is seeing a book's success. I'm still trying to understand a simpler question: why does a one panel appearance in a comic book amount to a character's first appearance in one case but not in another? And why does a character's appearance in an advertisement count as a 1st in one case but not others? Arbitrary and prevalent.

Yeah - the whole retroactive "OAAW 81 doesn't count because it's not Kubert & 'doesn't feel' like a Sgt. Rock story" argument makes no sense to me.

Although he's not named, I consider GI Combat 68 the first appearance - it's Kubert, his name is implied (the story's called "The Rock & The Wall") and DC agrees, by virtue of their including it (and 81-82, but none of the other "prototype issues") in the Showcase volume.

Do you really think if OPG or CGC looked carefully at both books, and weren't just going off dealer tradition that they would even be able to make an argument for the 54? There seems to be a clear consensus among those who have read these books, and heck, it looks like there may even be a consensus among those who have just read this thread.

In about a week the market will speak pretty clearly as to which is the bigger book. The only question is who will listen?

Both 54 and 60 are significant books in the history of the Teen Titans and why I have them in my collection. The underlying question here concerns the intent of the writers/artists at the time 54 was conceptualized. Unfortunately, the historical record lacks information detailing this so interpretations are left with the readings of 54 and 60 (as is the case with other books drawing issues and debates). Since we may only have the text of the books to draw conclusions, the whole picture will never be viewed. Best to have both, especially when one has a Premiani cover while the other belongs to Cardy.

Both 54 and 60 are significant books in the history of the Teen Titans and why I have them in my collection. The underlying question here concerns the intent of the writers/artists at the time 54 was conceptualized. Unfortunately, the historical record lacks information detailing this so interpretations are left with the readings of 54 and 60 (as is the case with other books drawing issues and debates). Since we may only have the text of the books to draw conclusions, the whole picture will never be viewed. Best to have both, especially when one has a Premiani cover while the other belongs to Cardy.

No doubt BB 54 has the better cover and story. That's not what this is about. The BB60 is the first appearance because it casts away all the doubt. There is no question after reading the 60 as to who the Teen Titans are and whom the team consists of. If the story ended after 54 one might say that it was a great story and had beautiful cover art, but there is uncertainty as to what took place and whether or not a team was established in perpetuity. 60 may not have the bells and whistles but it does have the Teen Titans, and for me that is good enough.

There seems to be a clear consensus among those who have read these books, and heck, it looks like there may even be a consensus among those who have just read this thread.

 

In about a week the market will speak pretty clearly as to which is the bigger book. The only question is who will listen?

The only person asserting the existence of a "consensus" favoring BB 60 is you. DC has made clear, once again, it disagrees. Dealers also clearly disagree based on their listings. And plenty of folks on this thread disagree with you here.

The only thing happening next week is an auction of a B&B 60 in 9.0. And what we don't disagree about is that black covers are harder to find in high grade. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a 9.0 BB 60 fetch a strong price, stronger than a BB54 in 9.0, as they are rarer in 9.0 due to the black cover. And since you are focused on the money angle, perhaps that should make you happy enough. But it has nothing to do with the significance of the books. (BB60 is significant as 1st Wonder Girl anyway, and some feel that's more important than first TT).

Worth noting, from the money angle that a 9.6 BB 54 went for $7,170 and a 9.6 BB60 went for $8,365. That's supply and demand since there are seven 9.6 BB54 and only a single BB60 in 9.6.

Once again you are doing a terrific job of debating on behalf of the 60, Duck. You have proven its the more valuable book.Thats a 6+ year old sale of the Pacific Coast 9.6 #60 BTW. As for the consensus I was referring

You need to actually read your definition of "consensus." Like many of your arguments on this thread, you got this one wrong too. "Consensus" means "unamity" and "harmony" not "majority rule."

P.S. I don't care about the value of the books. That doesn't prove anything relevant to me about the questions we are debating. BB 60 is a scarcer book in high grade and has the first appearance of a new character, either of which would explain why it garners higher prices than BB 54 without anyone thinking BB 60 is the first TT.

 

Semantic arguments make my head hurt.

 

Playing devil's advocate here....

 

Could that paragraph not also be construed as the "Team" not becoming the "Teen Titans" until wonder girl was added in BB60?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a dealer and own neither book.

 

-J.

I absolutely agree that team was not called the Teen Titans until BB 60. No one disputes that.

So let me get this straight, Duck. You are admitting BB 60 is the more valuable book. Here you clearly state 60 is the first mention of the Teen Titans. In the above post you concede that there is somewhere between a "majority rule" and a consensus (60-65%) here that believe the 60 is the first appearance.

You do realize you can end this all just by posting a panel, right? All it will take is a 30 second scan from the BB 54 showing the Teen Titans in action, heralded and named as a team for the first time.

You and I both know you can't produce that. Nobody can.

The onus is not on me to prove anything. The evidence here is clearly one-sided. So much so that in spite of the CGC label and in spite of the Overstreet Guide a clear majority of knowledgeable collectors have demonstrated precisely where the Teenage Titans make their debut. The onus is now on you.

Of course you can change all that with one 30 second scan. You've had 50+ pages of posting to do it.

More valuable in grade. You glossed over that detail. Black cover, lower cwnsus, many people betting 60 will win out equals higher sales prices.

But if the census were even for both books, we'd get the true comparable value ranking.

Heck, I vote for 54 but given what I just said I'm tempted to take a run on a 9.0 plus copy of 60 thinking its a safe bet that may pay off big time. But it's a bet and doesn't mean I think it's first appearance. Just that it has a better than even chance to be a moneymaker down the road, and as scarce as it is in HG I'm safe that the census won't suddenly flood.

Like GL 76 in 9.4!!!

Oops, bad example. We thought that was scarce in HG too...

 

Semantic arguments make my head hurt.

 

Playing devil's advocate here....

 

Could that paragraph not also be construed as the "Team" not becoming the "Teen Titans" until wonder girl was added in BB60?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a dealer and own neither book.

 

-J.

I absolutely agree that team was not called the Teen Titans until BB 60. No one disputes that.

 

So let me get this straight, Duck. You are admitting BB 60 is the more valuable book. Here you clearly state 60 is the first mention of the Teen Titans. In the above post you concede that there is somewhere between a "majority rule" and a consensus (60-65%) here that believe the 60 is the first appearance.

 

You do realize you can end this all just by posting a panel, right? All it will take is a 30 second scan from the BB 54 showing the Teen Titans in action, heralded and named as a team for the first time.

 

You and I both know you can't produce that. Nobody can.

 

The onus is not on me to prove anything. The evidence here is clearly one-sided. So much so that in spite of the CGC label and in spite of the Overstreet Guide a clear majority of knowledgeable collectors have demonstrated precisely where the Teenage Titans make their debut. The onus is now on you.

 

Of course you can change all that with one 30 second scan. You've had 50+ pages of posting to do it.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, all I think he's saying is that the team was actually named in issue #60. They still appeared for the first time as a team in #54.

With the exception of one oddball sale of a BB60, GPA on this book is around $500. It makes me wonder if the entire thread was created to pump the 9.0 auction up because it seems like this is what happened.

I was content to just let the thread die until Duck got mouthy again. I have nothing to do with the sale on ComicConnect, either as buyer or seller. I already own a HG 60 and if I wanted a HG 54 I could have one in about 5 minutes. That's not why this thread was started.

If either one of you gentlemen can show me a panel in 54 where the Teen Titans are formed Id be happy to admit my mistakes and move on. Otherwise, as it says in Matthew 7:1, "judge not, lest ye be judged". I have tried to keep this on topic.

The problem here is we all know that panel doesn't exist. The Titans are introduced on the cover and splash page of 60. It's the first appearance. I have no doubt.