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Reasonable Price for ASM 361
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Started by Heavy3PO,

489 posts in this topic

500Club

500Club

Posted
Posted
This book is heating up. The first printing is firmly selling for more than the 2nd printing.

 

Yes it is. Definitely not a surprise at all. (thumbs u

 

-J.

Of course, that's the end of the story, and must be very satisfying for you. The great ASM 361 first/second print debate is over, and you are the winner. lol

 

Don't tell him that! He won't understand that you're being sarcastic, and he'll repeat it as his own in a few months.

 

:cry:

You're probably right. After all, he did manage to miss the fact there was a debate about the importance and possible outcomes of copper second (and later) printings a few pages back. lol

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B-Smooth

B-Smooth

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Posted

I've had many 9.8's with cuts on the bottom edge. Really bad miswraps. And some with bad stress marks at the staples. The staple holes are usually iffy, but since this is a normal production issue, does anyone have an example of one that has a larger staple hole in it? Almost like a pull, but not that bad.

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Silverdream

Silverdream

Posted
Posted (edited)

Carnage's first appearance is very muddy because of how they lead up to 361. It goes like this.

 

ASM 344 First appearance of Cledus Kasady , Eddie Brock's cell mate who becomes Carnage. Major Key when it comes to Carnage. Carnage is the Alter Ego, albeit a villain. This is the characters first appearance.

 

ASM 345 Second Kasady. The symbiote breaks Brock out of jail and leaves a drip of itself left over, foreshadowing it combining with Kasady. This issue is listed as Carnage's origin, because it is.

 

Large 1 year gap between appearances.

 

ASM 359 This book is huge because it is the first time Kasady has obviously already combined with the symbiote. He is talking to it, using the word "we" a bunch. He attacks a guard from his cell, and we can clearly see the red symbiote coming from him. One the letters page of 359 we are shown a cover preview of 361.

 

ASM 360 On Page 13 Carnage appears, calling himself Carnage and killing another person.

 

ASM 361 You know the deal on this one.

 

SO....

 

In my book ASM 359 is the first appearance of Carnage in Cameo ( unnamed )

 

ASM 360 is the first appearance of Carnage. ( Named )

 

ASM 361 is the first cover appearance of Carnage.

 

ASM 361 has been shoved down so many peoples throat I doubt the general comic collector will care about 359 or 360. Plus everyone wants a cover intro, so its easy to ignore the previous issues.

 

This isn't quite as simple as Hulk 180/181 or ASM 299/300 with a cameo on the last page.

 

Not that any of this matters, because the print run for ASM during this time was Half a million copies each issue, with 361 being closer to 600,000

 

 

 

Edited by Silverdream
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Silverdream

Silverdream

Posted
Posted
Yeah, I agree both books should pick up.

Argument can be made #360 is his "First Appearance".

My #360 slab doesn't even have a Carnage note at all.

 

 

360 now lists " 1st appearance of Carnage in Cameo on last page"

 

Totally wrong since the appearance is in the middle of the book, and he had an appearance in 359.

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Silverdream

Silverdream

Posted
Posted (edited)
Posting this here, as it is relevant:

 

GORGEOUS! :cloud9::golfclap:

 

I am not going to tell him he is mistaken, but somewhere along the lines maybe Marvel said lets do a 3rd and then changed their minds.

 

750K is a number we need to remember down the road because this book is going to get hot soon and be another big Marvel book in a year or two. I have to tell myself that occasionally because I have amassed a few nice copies.

 

Thanks for sharing that information.

 

Why are we taking this for grail when he said there were 3 printings?

 

Emberlin is mistaken.

 

Not only did the book NOT go to 3 printings, it did NOT sell 750,000 copies.

 

Common sense has to be used: 750,000 copies sold would mean that there were roughly 900,000-1 million copies printed, because the newsstand always returns *something,* Amazing Spiderman has *never* even come CLOSE to printing a million copies of ANY issue. And if they had printed a million copies, there would have been plenty of copies in circulation to more than cover demand...which means they wouldn't have gone to a second printing.

 

It must be remembered that this book was printed and on the stands in February of 1992. Now, granted, there had been crazy printruns....at the time, they were printing a million copies of Jim Lee's X-Men...but in February of 1992, McFarlane was long gone, and Amazing had simply been chugging along. Carnage was simply another character which took the comic buying public by surprise, which resulted in sellouts (read: not enough copies to go around) and an immediate second printing of not only #361, but #362 as well.

 

Immediate second or more printings always means that they didn't print enough in the first place.

 

They probably sold around 350,000-400,000 copies, which is nothing to sneeze at, but not anywhere near 750,000, which would have been more than the entire print run plus another 35% or so.

 

Look at the numbers: the numbers for two years had been in the 350,000 copies sold range. The SOO printed in #360 (which would have covered up to about issue #356, so only a few months before #361) shows a sell-through of 340,000 copies, on a just a bit less than 500,000 total print run. Nothing would much have changed going into #361.

 

And so, not only did you have unmet demand (which means they didn't print enough copies) and a sellout for #361, but you also had the same situation for #362, and both went to a second printing shortly after #363 came out.

 

INCLUDING the second printing, total copies for #361 probably sold in the neighborhood of 500,000 total copies.

 

Then, the next year, the SOO in #375, you see a big jump...and this makes sense, considering in that year you had the madness of Carnage, PLUS the 30th Anniversary hologram covers, which were also a huge hit. It was a big year for Spidey, and orders steadily increased throughout the year, in concert with the general ramp up in the entire industry.

 

It would be another full year before print runs got totally ridiculous, and this was reflected in Amazing Spiderman as well (which is why copies of #375 are EVERYWHERE.)

 

For reference:

 

http://www.comichron.com/titlespotlights/amazingspiderman.html

 

 

ASM 361 didn't take many people by surprise. As shown in one of my other posts, they were building up carnage in each issue showing the cover for 361 in the letters page of 359, and at the end of 360 it touts the next issue as " Spidey meets the SPAWN OF VENOM!! " Also, 361 featured the return of Mark Bagley who had taken a few issues off, they announced that at the end of ASM 360 as well. He wasn't McFarlane, but he was very popular.

 

The other thing nobody has mentioned, ASM 361 is listed as the 207th most ordered book of 1992. Ok that was mentioned. What wasn't mentioned was that ASM 360 was #244 on that list. That's quite a large jump for one issue right? Why is that? hmmmm oh yeah because Carnage and 361 was not a surprise.

 

ALSO!! ASM 370 is listed as #211 in sales for 1992. Wait! ASM 361 was ordered more than the glut era ASM 370 and had nearly the same orders as ASM 371 which is # 204?? How could that be? Oh right, ASM 361 was not a surprise, it was ordered heavy.

 

Well, I guess it was still a surprise because it still sold out and retailers we left going holy im going even bigger on the next issue, ASM 362 shows as the # 183rd book of 1992 and ASM 363 just simply blew up being ranked # 113. And after that? ASM 364 dropped to # 187 ... less that 362. Why? Because just as the carnage story starting in 361 was no surprise, the fact that 364 wouldn't have venom or carnage was not a surprise either.

 

There is a reason most collections of ASM I purchase from original owners have 1-2 copies of each, then 3-5 of 361 and 362 and then like 10 copies of 363. Its the same reason MY collection looks like that. Its the same reason the yearly sales rankings for diamond show the same pattern. If we had Capitals rankings, it would shape up the same way.

 

ASM 361 was ordered just as much as ASM 370 and 371. That should tell us enough. ASM 371 had about 600,000 copies printed with 120,000 estimated returns* ( explanation at the end) REMEMBER ! ASM 361 sold out, leaving many collectors hopping around 7-11's and book stores trying to find copies. The returns on 361 would have been MUCH lower because of the sell out.

 

My estimate for ASM # 361 looks like this 600,000 copies printed with 60,000 in returns. 540,000 copies floating around. Still much less that 750,000. Way more than 350,000-400,000.

 

My 2c Take it for what it is.

 

 

*** The estimate of 600,000 copies printed for ASM 371 is based on the SOO from ASM 375 which states actual print runs for the issue closest to filing date of October 1, 1992 is: 595,700 copies printed minus total copies not distributed 129,350 this = 466,350 copies of ASM 371 actually sold.

 

The reason ASM 371 can be targeted as the closest issue to the filing date is because the SOO is for Marvels January- December COVER dates. They filed each year in October because back then they solicited the books 3 months in advance. The SOO is printed in ASM 375 because the SOO is required to be printed in the first book of the new year. ASM 375 has a march cover date, but was released in January of 1993. I hope this makes sense.

 

Edited by Silverdream
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RockMyAmadeus

RockMyAmadeus

Posted
Posted
Posting this here, as it is relevant:

 

GORGEOUS! :cloud9::golfclap:

 

I am not going to tell him he is mistaken, but somewhere along the lines maybe Marvel said lets do a 3rd and then changed their minds.

 

750K is a number we need to remember down the road because this book is going to get hot soon and be another big Marvel book in a year or two. I have to tell myself that occasionally because I have amassed a few nice copies.

 

Thanks for sharing that information.

 

Why are we taking this for grail when he said there were 3 printings?

 

Emberlin is mistaken.

 

Not only did the book NOT go to 3 printings, it did NOT sell 750,000 copies.

 

Common sense has to be used: 750,000 copies sold would mean that there were roughly 900,000-1 million copies printed, because the newsstand always returns *something,* Amazing Spiderman has *never* even come CLOSE to printing a million copies of ANY issue. And if they had printed a million copies, there would have been plenty of copies in circulation to more than cover demand...which means they wouldn't have gone to a second printing.

 

It must be remembered that this book was printed and on the stands in February of 1992. Now, granted, there had been crazy printruns....at the time, they were printing a million copies of Jim Lee's X-Men...but in February of 1992, McFarlane was long gone, and Amazing had simply been chugging along. Carnage was simply another character which took the comic buying public by surprise, which resulted in sellouts (read: not enough copies to go around) and an immediate second printing of not only #361, but #362 as well.

 

Immediate second or more printings always means that they didn't print enough in the first place.

 

They probably sold around 350,000-400,000 copies, which is nothing to sneeze at, but not anywhere near 750,000, which would have been more than the entire print run plus another 35% or so.

 

Look at the numbers: the numbers for two years had been in the 350,000 copies sold range. The SOO printed in #360 (which would have covered up to about issue #356, so only a few months before #361) shows a sell-through of 340,000 copies, on a just a bit less than 500,000 total print run. Nothing would much have changed going into #361.

 

And so, not only did you have unmet demand (which means they didn't print enough copies) and a sellout for #361, but you also had the same situation for #362, and both went to a second printing shortly after #363 came out.

 

INCLUDING the second printing, total copies for #361 probably sold in the neighborhood of 500,000 total copies.

 

Then, the next year, the SOO in #375, you see a big jump...and this makes sense, considering in that year you had the madness of Carnage, PLUS the 30th Anniversary hologram covers, which were also a huge hit. It was a big year for Spidey, and orders steadily increased throughout the year, in concert with the general ramp up in the entire industry.

 

It would be another full year before print runs got totally ridiculous, and this was reflected in Amazing Spiderman as well (which is why copies of #375 are EVERYWHERE.)

 

For reference:

 

http://www.comichron.com/titlespotlights/amazingspiderman.html

 

 

ASM 361 didn't take many people by surprise. As shown in one of my other posts, they were building up carnage in each issue showing the cover for 361 in the letters page of 359, and at the end of 360 it touts the next issue as " Spidey meets the SPAWN OF VENOM!! " Also, 361 featured the return of Mark Bagley who had taken a few issues off, they announced that at the end of ASM 360 as well. He wasn't McFarlane, but he was very popular.

 

The other thing nobody has mentioned, ASM 361 is listed as the 207th most ordered book of 1992. Ok that was mentioned. What wasn't mentioned was that ASM 360 was #244 on that list. That's quite a large jump for one issue right? Why is that? hmmmm oh yeah because Carnage and 361 was not a surprise.

 

ALSO!! ASM 370 is listed as #211 in sales for 1992. Wait! ASM 361 was ordered more than the glut era ASM 370 and had nearly the same orders as ASM 371 which is # 204?? How could that be? Oh right, ASM 361 was not a surprise, it was ordered heavy.

 

Well, I guess it was still a surprise because it still sold out and retailers we left going holy im going even bigger on the next issue, ASM 362 shows as the # 183rd book of 1992 and ASM 363 just simply blew up being ranked # 113. And after that? ASM 364 dropped to # 187 ... less that 362. Why? Because just as the carnage story starting in 361 was no surprise, the fact that 364 wouldn't have venom or carnage was not a surprise either.

 

There is a reason most collections of ASM I purchase from original owners have 1-2 copies of each, then 3-5 of 361 and 362 and then like 10 copies of 363. Its the same reason MY collection looks like that. Its the same reason the yearly sales rankings for diamond show the same pattern. If we had Capitals rankings, it would shape up the same way.

 

ASM 361 was ordered just as much as ASM 370 and 371. That should tell us enough. ASM 371 had about 600,000 copies printed with 120,000 estimated returns* ( explanation at the end) REMEMBER ! ASM 361 sold out, leaving many collectors hopping around 7-11's and book stores trying to find copies. The returns on 361 would have been MUCH lower because of the sell out.

 

My estimate for ASM # 361 looks like this 600,000 copies printed with 60,000 in returns. 540,000 copies floating around. Still much less that 750,000. Way more than 350,000-400,000.

 

My 2c Take it for what it is.

 

 

*** The estimate of 600,000 copies printed for ASM 371 is based on the SOO from ASM 375 which states actual print runs for the issue closest to filing date of October 1, 1992 is: 595,700 copies printed minus total copies not distributed 129,350 this = 466,350 copies of ASM 371 actually sold.

 

The reason ASM 371 can be targeted as the closest issue to the filing date is because the SOO is for Marvels January- December COVER dates. They filed each year in October because back then they solicited the books 3 months in advance. The SOO is printed in ASM 375 because the SOO is required to be printed in the first book of the new year. ASM 375 has a march cover date, but was released in January of 1993. I hope this makes sense.

 

There are several errors in this post.

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