1st Teen Titans

3 3

I thought this may be of interest. The last few panels of Brave and the Bold #53.

 

Thanks again! To me, the end of BB 53 just dramatizes that the end of BB 54's announcement of a "new team" meant something more than just a mere "team-up."

It shows two things:

1.) BB 54 was at best a tryout or prototype. There is no reference to a Junior Justice League or team of any sort that would be appearing in BB 54. It simply co-stars Kid Flash, Aqualad and Robin all of whom had appeared previously in other titles. Without 60, like many other books from the run, 54 would fall into obscurity.

2.) The word "teaming" is used in the panel above the announcement of BB 54. It shows how common the usage of the word "team" was during this particular run. Every issue involved someone teaming up with someone else, that is until 60, which DC themselves have referred to as the "first Teen Titans" adventure.

About 5% of your total posts since you have joined this chat board nearly 10 years ago have been dedicated to this thread, Duck. And to argue what? That 3 teenagers are referred to as a "team" at the end of BB 54? The word is used very liberally during the Brave and the Bolds of the mid to late 60's. If that's the best you've got you are fighting a losing battle, my friend.

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54.

But does that really make 54 the first appearance?

Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...?

Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team.

And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did.

Teen Titans is 4 TEENAGE HEROES.

 

Uh .. no. It started with three teenage heroes. And it ended with 5 or 6 after hitting a height of 11 or 12.

Ok...

I guess one way to determine when the TT started is to see who DC says were the original founding members.

If Wonder Girl was not a founding member - then perhaps BB54 could be the first appearance of TT.

If Wonder Girl was a founding original member, then it cannot be 54, but must be 60 which is the first appearance.

According to DC Wonder Girl was a founding member.....

Wonder girl was a founding member... hmmmm...

Where does that leave us and what do we know?

1. We know that Wonder Girl did NOT found any group in BB54.

2. We know that Wonder Girl was part of TT in BB60.

That leaves two options. Either TT was founded in BB60 or it was founded after BB54 but before BB60.

____

For me, BB60 was the first appearance of the TT.

53 tells the story of how Ringo, and Paul meet... 54 how they got to know John and played music together. BB60 tells the story of when they actually decided they clicked so well they formed the Beatles.

But I understand the confusion fully. CGC labels... just like people still thing Hulk271 is the first appearance of the little fury critter... and because DC have conflicting messages in this regards.

But overall I think it is fairly clear that the most logical conclusion is that it is 60. Wonder Girl is a founding member and must be in BB60 then, there is no formal group in 53 or 54, only that some of them knew each other.

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

 

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54.

 

But does that really make 54 the first appearance?

 

Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...?

 

Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team.

 

And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did.

You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something?

My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins.

Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received?

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

If you are going to get that technical then, the Teen Titans started due to the events in Detective Comics #38

Teen Titans is 4 TEENAGE HEROES.

 

Uh .. no. It started with three teenage heroes. And it ended with 5 or 6 after hitting a height of 11 or 12.

 

Ok...

 

I guess one way to determine when the TT started is to see who DC says were the original founding members.

 

If Wonder Girl was not a founding member - then perhaps BB54 could be the first appearance of TT.

 

If Wonder Girl was a founding original member, then it cannot be 54, but must be 60 which is the first appearance.

 

According to DC Wonder Girl was a founding member.....

 

Wonder girl was a founding member... hmmmm...

 

Where does that leave us and what do we know?

 

1. We know that Wonder Girl did NOT found any group in BB54.

2. We know that Wonder Girl was part of TT in BB60.

 

That leaves two options. Either TT was founded in BB60 or it was founded after BB54 but before BB60.

 

____

 

For me, BB60 was the first appearance of the TT.

 

53 tells the story of how Ringo, and Paul meet... 54 how they got to know John and played music together. BB60 tells the story of when they actually decided they clicked so well they formed the Beatles.

 

But I understand the confusion fully. CGC labels... just like people still thing Hulk271 is the first appearance of the little fury critter... and because DC have conflicting messages in this regards.

 

But overall I think it is fairly clear that the most logical conclusion is that it is 60. Wonder Girl is a founding member and must be in BB60 then, there is no formal group in 53 or 54, only that some of them knew each other.

If you're a casual Beatles listener, sure. They began when they started calling themselves the Beatles.

If you're a hardcore collector and fan, you can bet those early recordings are part of the Beatles catalogue and story. If you're a completionist, you can bet those early recordings are even very sought after.

As a collector, I see 54 being the first and most important beginning issue for the Teen Titans. If you absolutely need a logo and a name, if you need every single original member all together in the same panel, then 60 is the issue for you.

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

 

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54.

 

But does that really make 54 the first appearance?

 

Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...?

 

Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team.

 

And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did.

 

You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something?

 

My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins.

 

Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received?

I think BB54 was an important event towards creating TT in BB60. If no BB53 and BB54 then there may never have formed the idea to create TT in BB60.

However, BB54 itself is no guarantee there would ever be a TT.

So important to the foundation in BB60, but not sufficient.

Just like Paul and John Lennon's first meeting was important to the later formation of the Beatles, but it did not guarantee that they later would actually go ahead and form the band.

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

 

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54.

 

But does that really make 54 the first appearance?

 

Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...?

 

Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team.

 

And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did.

 

You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something?

 

My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins.

 

Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received?

 

I think BB54 was an important event towards creating TT in BB60. If no BB53 and BB54 then there may never have formed the idea to create TT in BB60.

 

However, BB54 itself is no guarantee there would ever be a TT.

 

So important to the foundation in BB60, but not sufficient.

 

Just like Paul and John Lennon's first meeting was important to the later formation of the Beatles, but it did not guarantee that they later would actually go ahead and form the band.

It's only not sufficient in your opinion.

Honestly if you think the story of the Beatles only begins when they start calling themselves the Beatles, then that may even be worse than saying #60 is where the story of the Teen Titans begins

This is the chicken and the egg. The Kobayashi Maru.

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

 

If you are going to get that technical then, the Teen Titans started due to the events in Detective Comics #38

C-mon, Yoddler. That's like saying The X-Men wouldn't have made it if Fantastic Four was not so successful.

This isn't that hard. DC had stated twice in writing that #60 is the first appearance. I have Lazyboy heckling me aggressively after quoting what the DC Wikia says about BB 60, yet no one has edited it since March, 2014. We don't know who maintains the site but it does not appear public.

Anyone who has read the issue can tell BB 60 is to the Teen Titans what Brave and the Bold 28 was to the Justice League.

How can 54 be a first appearance if what supposedly appears is neither mentioned nor pictured (with Wonder Girl) in the entire issue?

And, oh yeah. There's this........

The fundamental difference between the two arguments is one side is citing actual events and storyline, while the other is citing name, trademark and reference points.

 

I don't think either is going to sway the other because you are each arguing two completely different perspectives.

 

If you're defending events and storyline, then 54 is the origin and first appearance, because clearly the story in 60 couldn't happen without the events that occurred in 54.

 

If you're defending name, trademark and reference points, then 60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans brand.

 

As a true collector, I'd choose 54 all day over 60 because to me, STORY is the most important thing. Where does the STORY of the Teen Titans start? It's always going to be 54 -- because that's where it all begins.

 

To say 54 would fall into obscurity is a little ridiculous. There wouldn't even be a 60 if there was no 54.

 

It's true they could not have formed a team in BB60 if some of them hadn't met in BB54.

 

But does that really make 54 the first appearance?

 

Then I guess Superman 76 is the first appearance of JLA because they couldn't have made JLA without Superman and Batman meeting in Superman 76 and thus being in the same universe...?

 

Just because people meet doesn't mean they form a team. Not until there actually is announced a team.

 

And ... where it all began? It began earlier in 53 then... JLA began in....?? We cannot say Beatles began 4 years before they actually formed Beatles.. just because "some of the members met then and if they hadn't met, then there would be no Beatles..." True, they met earlier... their story shows that... but they did not form the Beatles until they actually did.

 

You're agreeing it's true that the team in 60 couldn't have formed if they hadn't met in 54. Doesn't that in and of itself say something?

 

My point is both 54 and 60 are two sides of the same coin -- one is the result and continuation of the other. I'll say it again: there would be no 60 if there wasn't a 54. For a Teen Titans completist and collector, 54 is where it begins.

 

Would DC have published 60 if 54 hadn't been so well received?

 

I think BB54 was an important event towards creating TT in BB60. If no BB53 and BB54 then there may never have formed the idea to create TT in BB60.

 

However, BB54 itself is no guarantee there would ever be a TT.

 

So important to the foundation in BB60, but not sufficient.

 

Just like Paul and John Lennon's first meeting was important to the later formation of the Beatles, but it did not guarantee that they later would actually go ahead and form the band.

 

It's only not sufficient in your opinion.

 

Honestly if you think the story of the Beatles only begins when they start calling themselves the Beatles, then that may even be worse than saying #60 is where the story of the Teen Titans begins

 

This is the chicken and the egg. The Kobayashi Maru.

Well, "if you think the story of JLA started in BB28 then..." right?

Many many event were necessary for BB28. Superman 76, Showtime 4 and so on and on.

But still..... JLA did in fact start at the time it was founded. Just like other teams did. And just like TT did. In BB60.

Th Beatles certainly didn't start just because John and Paul met. It started some time later... after they had jammed together, and met the other guys... Just like the JLA certainly didn't start just because Superman and Batman met.

Btw. Was Wonder Girl a founding member of TT?

C-mon, Yoddler. That's like saying The X-Men wouldn't have made it if Fantastic Four was not so successful.

 

This isn't that hard. DC had stated twice in writing that #60 is the first appearance. I have Lazyboy heckling me aggressively after quoting what the DC Wikia says about BB 60, yet no one has edited it since March, 2014. We don't know who maintains the site but it does not appear public.

 

Anyone who has read the issue can tell BB 60 is to the Teen Titans what Brave and the Bold 28 was to the Justice League.

 

How can it be a first appearance if what supposedly appears is neither mentioned nor pictured (with Wonder Girl) in the entire issue?

 

And, oh yeah. There's this........

 

I agree with you!

#60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans.

But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No.

54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60.

C-mon, Yoddler. That's like saying The X-Men wouldn't have made it if Fantastic Four was not so successful.

 

This isn't that hard. DC had stated twice in writing that #60 is the first appearance. I have Lazyboy heckling me aggressively after quoting what the DC Wikia says about BB 60, yet no one has edited it since March, 2014. We don't know who maintains the site but it does not appear public.

 

Anyone who has read the issue can tell BB 60 is to the Teen Titans what Brave and the Bold 28 was to the Justice League.

 

How can 54 be a first appearance if what supposedly appears is neither mentioned nor pictured (with Wonder Girl) in the entire issue?

 

And, oh yeah. There's this........

 

Ok. I didn't even know of this.

That surely settles it even for someone with the basement full of BB54s. We have a comic story which clearly says that BB54 was not the TT, only where they met. BB60 was the first appearance.

You do know that wiki's BY DEFINITION are public community maintained sources of information, don't you?

This settles nothing.

And you're going to base this on a site that YOU DON'T KNOW maintains the information?

If you're trying to sway me from my position, you'll have to do better.

C-mon, Yoddler. That's like saying The X-Men wouldn't have made it if Fantastic Four was not so successful.

 

This isn't that hard. DC had stated twice in writing that #60 is the first appearance. I have Lazyboy heckling me aggressively after quoting what the DC Wikia says about BB 60, yet no one has edited it since March, 2014. We don't know who maintains the site but it does not appear public.

 

Anyone who has read the issue can tell BB 60 is to the Teen Titans what Brave and the Bold 28 was to the Justice League.

 

How can it be a first appearance if what supposedly appears is neither mentioned nor pictured (with Wonder Girl) in the entire issue?

 

And, oh yeah. There's this........

 

 

I agree with you!

 

#60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans.

 

But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No.

 

54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60.

Ok, we agree BB60 is the first appearance of Teen Titans.

Now, if we want to track the event that lead to the formation then we can go back further than BB54 for sure. BB54 was an important event but not the first. BB53 for part and happened before BB54 obviously.

BB53 could be "the first mention of aqualad, robin and Kid Flash knowing each other"

BB54 could be "the first team-up of aqua-lad robin and Kid Flash."

BB60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans"

C-mon, Yoddler. That's like saying The X-Men wouldn't have made it if Fantastic Four was not so successful.

 

This isn't that hard. DC had stated twice in writing that #60 is the first appearance. I have Lazyboy heckling me aggressively after quoting what the DC Wikia says about BB 60, yet no one has edited it since March, 2014. We don't know who maintains the site but it does not appear public.

 

Anyone who has read the issue can tell BB 60 is to the Teen Titans what Brave and the Bold 28 was to the Justice League.

 

How can it be a first appearance if what supposedly appears is neither mentioned nor pictured (with Wonder Girl) in the entire issue?

 

And, oh yeah. There's this........

 

 

I agree with you!

 

#60 is the first issue a team calls itself the Teen Titans. It's the first issue of Wonder Girl as an original member of a team that first calls itself the Teen Titans.

 

But is it the first issue in the story of the formation of that team? No.

 

54 is the first issue that begins the story of the Teen Titans. There would be no 60 if there was no 54. You cannot argue the connection between these two books. They are directly linked. 54 begat 60.

 

Ok, we agree BB60 is the first appearance of Teen Titans.

 

Now, if we want to track the event that lead to the formation then we can go back further than BB54 for sure. BB54 was an important event but not the first. BB53 for part and happened before BB54 obviously.

 

BB53 could be "the first mention of aqualad, robin and Kid Flash knowing each other"

 

BB54 could be "the first team-up of aqua-lad robin and Kid Flash."

 

BB60 is the first appearance of the Teen Titans"

If you read what I wrote, you'd see this is clearly not what I said. But if it makes you happy, you can say I said BB60 is the first appearance of the name Teen Titans.

Well said, Alex

You do know that wiki's BY DEFINITION are public community maintained sources of information, don't you?

 

This settles nothing.

 

And you're going to base this on a site that YOU DON'T KNOW maintains the information?

 

If you're trying to sway me from my position, you'll have to do better.

Awesome sig line btw. That ASM 194 is a dandy.

Is that any better ?

You do know that wiki's BY DEFINITION are public community maintained sources of information, don't you?

 

This settles nothing.

 

And you're going to base this on a site that YOU DON'T KNOW maintains the information?

 

If you're trying to sway me from my position, you'll have to do better.

I didn't mean what the wiki said. Rather what the text in the comic said (see the images).