1st Teen Titans

3 3

Sometimes trends and charts don't tell the whole story. Once in a great while if you read what's between the covers you can learn what the charts can't teach you.

54 is a wonderful story, but the 1st Teen Titans it is not. All the memes in the world can't change that.

I have stated Ive owned a couple of copies of the 60 since the 2nd or 3rd page of this thread. Attacking me won't make your argument any stronger. I believe the merits of the 60 have been demonstrated at no ones expense. All I ask in return is for the same courtesy.

Who were you 'attacked' by? Curious…I'll get 'em!

New Teen Titans came out in 1980. This led to some re-examination of the original Teen Titans by the scholars/fan press back then. I think it is telling to see what the prevailing view was back then:

* Tom Burkett in Amazing Heroes #2 (1981): "Created by writer Bob Haney and editor George Kashdan for The Brave and the Bold #54 (July, 1964), the concept behind the Teen Titans has proved its worth many times since."

* David Kirk in Comics Feature #19 (1982): "The Teen Titans is often referred to as a ‘Junior Justice League,' and with good reason, since that’s precisely what the team started out as. Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad, all sidekicks of Justice League members, teamed up for the first time in THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD #54, and they adopted the name Teen Titans (and added fourth charter member Wonder Girl) in their second appearance in B&B#60."

Also worth noting that, like the Silver Age Teen Titans Archives (2003), Teen Titans Showcase v. 1 (2006) also starts with BB 54.

I don't think there has ever really been a time when fandom didn't view BB 54 as the first Teen Titans appearance or DC has not reprinted it as such.

New Teen Titans came out in 1980. This led to some re-examination of the original Teen Titans by the scholars/fan press back then. I think it is telling to see what the prevailing view was back then:

 

* Tom Burkett in Amazing Heroes #2 (1981): "Created by writer Bob Haney and editor George Kashdan for The Brave and the Bold #54 (July, 1964), the concept behind the Teen Titans has proved its worth many times since."

 

* David Kirk in Comics Feature #19 (1982): "The Teen Titans is often referred to as a ‘Junior Justice League,' and with good reason, since that’s precisely what the team started out as. Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad, all sidekicks of Justice League members, teamed up for the first time in THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD #54, and they adopted the name Teen Titans (and added fourth charter member Wonder Girl) in their second appearance in B&B#60."

 

Also worth noting that, like the Silver Age Teen Titans Archives (2003), Teen Titans Showcase v. 1 (2006) also starts with BB 54.

 

I don't think there has ever really been a time when fandom didn't view BB 54 as the first Teen Titans appearance or DC has not reprinted it as such.

Well, the time between BB54 and BB60 is when 54 wasn't viewed as the first appearance. No one's arguing that the view that 54 was their first appearance hasn't been prevalent all these years. But the same thing was true of Our Army at War 81. It was the conventional wisdom, no doubt. Then, forty years later, people began reconsidering the merits of 81's claim and came to the conclusion that the sergeant in 81 wasn't the Sgt. Rock we know and love. I think careful examination of 54 and 60 will lead--is already leading--people to come to a similar reconsideration about the Teen Titans. Fifty-four is a precursor and/or a prototype and/or a tryout, no argument. But we don't see the characters form or act as a formally constituted team and no one utters the words, "Teen Titans." The first time we see any of that is BB 60.

Fifty-four is a precursor and/or a prototype and/or a tryout, no argument. But we don't see the characters form or act as a formally constituted team and no one utters the words, "Teen Titans." The first time we see any of that is BB 60.

Not true. Not only do Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad come together and act as a team in BB 54, the last panel of BB 54 concludes with DC touting a "new team of DC Superheroes." And in the very next appearance of these heroes together (BB 60), it is revealed that prior to that story they adopted the name "Teen Titans." The story continuity is clear. The team was formed in BB 54 (essentially in the same manner as the Avengers), but the name was not revealed until BB 60. And this is consistent with the backstory, that Kashdan tasked Haney with creating a "junior Justice League" for BB 54.

As a matter of Teen Titans continuity and canon, fan/scholar opinion, dealer listing, OSPG, and DC's official position, BB 54 is the first appearance of the team. Wishful investment thinking isn't changing that.

BB 54 is clearly not a "prototype" such as Dr. Occult wearing a cape and being called a Superman "prototype." Nor is it a "try out" like having an acrobat wear a Capt. America costume. Nor is Sgt. Rock analogous. BB 54 is, instead, a first appearance like many B&B and Showcase issues which introduced new heroes and teams.

What you guys appear to be hung up on is that the team created in BB 54 doesn't use the "Teen Titans" name until BB 60. And if I was collecting trademarks I'd agree that BB 60 was the key issue because that is where the trademark first appears. But, I collect characters and stories. And just as you can't have a complete Antman collection without TTA 27, you can't have a complete Teen Titans collection without BB 54.

Well, the time between BB54 and BB60 is when 54 wasn't viewed as the first appearance. No one's arguing that the view that 54 was their first appearance hasn't been prevalent all these years. But the same thing was true of Our Army at War 81. It was the conventional wisdom, no doubt. Then, forty years later, people began reconsidering the merits of 81's claim and came to the conclusion that the sergeant in 81 wasn't the Sgt. Rock we know and love. I think careful examination of 54 and 60 will lead--is already leading--people to come to a similar reconsideration about the Teen Titans. Fifty-four is a precursor and/or a prototype and/or a tryout, no argument. But we don't see the characters form or act as a formally constituted team and no one utters the words, "Teen Titans." The first time we see any of that is BB 60.

This thread has definitely run it's course - Better to just accept what was stated at this point (and there is plenty more in favor of 60) and let people make their own decisions. Arguments are coming full circle at this point with information that already was proven incorrect but it doesn't seem to matter, what does seem to matter is attempting to be right.

I'm just trying to figure out how a group consisting of 4 charter members (aka an original or founding member of a society or organization) can be created with only 3 people and no mention of said group. Sounds magical.

The team is neither complete, nor given its name in BB 54. You cannot site one specific example where a similar case is considered a 1st appearance. To the contrary, Sub-Mariner #34 (previously pictured) serves as the closest comparison and is not considered the first Defenders.

You can argue intent, Duck, but these are the facts:

1.)The team is given its title, The Teen Titans, in #60.

2.)There was never any mention of the TT prior to Wonder Girl's debut. Her first appearance coincides with that of the team.

3.)Robin clearly states the team was formed after the events of 54. By definition, this would make 54 the origin and 60 the first appearance. He does not say the team was formed during or before the events of 54, otherwise you would have a leg to stand on.

Both very important books. I will not argue that. 60, however, is the clear cut first appearance. To argue otherwise is to rely on interpretations, semantics and intent. You don't need to look or try that hard. All you really need to do is take a peek at the front covers and DC will tell you in plain English which book is the team's first appearance.

I don't think that the sole motivation to support 60 is monetary, it is mostly fans recognizing that 60 is important, and stating why. I cannot see why 54 cannot be viewed as a tryout or prototype, it clearly is.

I fully agree with Teddie, the debate has come full circle. Duck, just agree to disagree.

Lastly, while OS, CGC and history has sided with the 54, it is not unprecedented that these things change over time, also, the price increases of 60 have outpaced 54, showing that collectors are voting with their wallets.

Fifty-four is a precursor and/or a prototype and/or a tryout, no argument. But we don't see the characters form or act as a formally constituted team and no one utters the words, "Teen Titans." The first time we see any of that is BB 60.

 

Not true. Not only do Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad come together and act as a team in BB 54, the last panel of BB 54 concludes with DC touting a "new team of DC Superheroes." And in the very next appearance of these heroes together (BB 60), it is revealed that prior to that story they adopted the name "Teen Titans." The story continuity is clear. The team was formed in BB 54...

This is kind of astonishing to me. You include my specific quote "act as a formally constituted team" and then in your refutation say only that they "act as a team." Which doesn't refute my point: They are not a formally constituted team in B&B54.

You also say "the team was formed IN [emphasis added] BB 54." You can claim that all you want, but you'll have to take it up with the leader of the team, a young man named Robin, who specifically says--as we have quoted ad nauseam--that the team formed AFTER the events of that issue.

What you guys appear to be hung up on is that the team created in BB 54 doesn't use the "Teen Titans" name until BB 60. And if I was collecting trademarks I'd agree that BB 60 was the key issue because that is where the trademark first appears. But, I collect characters and stories. And just as you can't have a complete Antman collection without TTA 27, you can't have a complete Teen Titans collection without BB 54.

I think we've found common ground here. Yes, if you want the full story you should have B&B 54. And yes, the name "Teen Titans" does not appear until B&B 60, in ANY sense, "trademark" or "English." That's why we've been saying the first appearance of the "Teen Titans" is B&B 60.

And...scene.

 

Arguments are coming full circle at this point with information that already was proven incorrect but it doesn't seem to matter, what does seem to matter is attempting to be right.

I agree. And as long as incorrect statements continue to be made by you and others, I will correct them.

I'm just trying to figure out how a group consisting of 4 charter members (aka an original or founding member of a society or organization) can be created with only 3 people and no mention of said group. Sounds magical.

So many things wrong with this statement. Nowhere in BB 60 does it say there are only "four charter members" of the group. Robin doesn't reference four charter members. Instead, he strongly implies that there are only three members by stating: "Teen Titans is a group I set up, after Kid Flash, Aqualad, and I helped the kids of Hatton Corners." The strong implication, consistent with the last panel of BB 54, is that the "new group" started with Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. Robin doesn't even mention Wonder Girl, let alone as a "charter member." Your assumption of four original members is contrary to the continuity, where the first adventure and origin of the group in BB 54 features three members. Fans/scholars have long recognized, as the quotes I posted in the above posts evidence, that BB 60 featured the addition of a new member to the team.

 

Arguments are coming full circle at this point with information that already was proven incorrect but it doesn't seem to matter, what does seem to matter is attempting to be right.

 

I agree. And as long as incorrect statements continue to be made by you and others, I will correct them.

 

I'm just trying to figure out how a group consisting of 4 charter members (aka an original or founding member of a society or organization) can be created with only 3 people and no mention of said group. Sounds magical.

 

So many things wrong with this statement. Nowhere in BB 60 does it say there are only "four charter members" of the group. Robin doesn't reference four charter members. Instead, he strongly implies that there are only three members by stating: "Teen Titans is a group I set up, after Kid Flash, Aqualad, and I helped the kids of Hatton Corners." The strong implication, consistent with the last panel of BB 54, is that the "new group" started with Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. Robin doesn't even mention Wonder Girl, let alone as a "charter member." Your assumption of four original members is contrary to the continuity, where the first adventure and origin of the group in BB 54 features three members. Fans/scholars have long recognized, as the quotes I posted in the above posts evidence, that BB 60 featured the addition of a new member to the team.

Exactly what I thought - magic Lima beans.

Glad to know you are the protector of incorrect information since you continually make assumptions based on faulty information, ignore posts correcting these, and revert back to past arguments that are lacking in logic. But don't fret you are winning - everyone can see that.

Have fun guys - I'm done and so should this thread.

The team is neither complete, nor given its name in BB 54. You cannot site one specific example where a similar case is considered a 1st appearance. To the contrary, Sub-Mariner #34 (previously pictured) serves as the closest comparison and is not considered the first Defenders.

 

You can argue intent, Duck, but these are the facts:

 

1.)The team is given its title, The Teen Titans, in #60.

 

2.)There was never any mention of the TT prior to Wonder Girl's debut. Her first appearance coincides with that of the team.

 

3.)Robin clearly states the team was formed after the events of 54. By definition, this would make 54 the origin and 60 the first appearance. He does not say the team was formed during or before the events of 54, otherwise you would have a leg to stand on.

 

Both very important books. I will not argue that. 60, however, is the clear cut first appearance. To argue otherwise is to rely on interpretations, semantics and intent. You don't need to look or try that hard. All you really need to do is take a peek at the front covers and DC will tell you in plain English which book is the team's first appearance.

Again so much wrong.

First, the team is complete with its original members in BB 54. A new member, Wonder Girl is added in BB 60. More new members, Speedy etc., are added in later adventures. You are engaging in tautological reasoning when you assert the team is not "complete" until BB 60.

Second, the Teen Titans origin is almost exactly like the origin of the Avengers. Events bring a group of heroes together, they have an adventure without declaring themselves a team, and after that adventure they form the team. The only difference is that in the last panels of Avengers 1 the team picks a name and in the last panel of BB 54, although DC announces "a new team," no name is picked. But the issue is not when a character or team first gets its name (remember TTA 27?), it is when does the team/character first appear.

Third, Submariner 34 isn't even close. S34 features different characters than MP 1. S34 is not referenced in MP 1. MP1 is not a continuation of the story in S34. It's not even close to the relationship between BB 54 and BB 60.

I do agree that the team gets its name in BB 60. It also gets a new member. But, like with TTA 27, the issue is the first appearance of the team not the trademark.

Finally, you continue to misrepresent what Robin says in BB 60. Robin never says that the team "was formed after the events in 54." What he says is that the team was formed after the adventure. And in the last panel of BB 54, after the adventure is over, DC announces the creation of a "new team." I'm glad you have given up trying to equate this last panel announcement of "a new team" with a mere "team-up," but you do your credibility no favors by ignoring what Robin actually said and the last panel of BB 54.

Your investment wishes are not consistent with DC's position or many years of fan/scholar/dealer opinion. The market long ago rejected your interpretation of BB 54 and 60. Fans/scholars/dealers and DC are sophisticated enough to recognize the difference between the first appearance of a character/team and the first appearance of a name/trademark.

This is kind of astonishing to me. You include my specific quote "act as a formally constituted team" and then in your refutation say only that they "act as a team." Which doesn't refute my point: They are not a formally constituted team in B&B54.

And the Avengers aren't either during their adventure in Avengers 1. It is not unusual for comic teams to "formally constitute" after their first adventure together. In Avengers 1 they chose a team name in the last panels. In BB 54, they just announced a "new team." It's a distinction that only matters if you care more about trademarks than substance, and as the views towards TTA 27 and BB 54 show, most folks care about the substance.

 

Exactly what I thought - magic Lima beans.

 

Glad to know you are the protector of incorrect information since you continually make assumptions based on faulty information, ignore posts correcting these, and revert back to past arguments that are lacking in logic. But don't fret you are winning - everyone can see that.

 

Have fun guys - I'm done and so should this thread.

Don't know who you are, but I do know you aren't adding anything to this thread other than fluff and . I respect Blazing and his arguments, even though I think he's demonstrably wrong. But, your accusations have no support, and I'm not going to miss your "contributions."

 

Arguments are coming full circle at this point with information that already was proven incorrect but it doesn't seem to matter, what does seem to matter is attempting to be right.

 

I agree. And as long as incorrect statements continue to be made by you and others, I will correct them.

 

I'm just trying to figure out how a group consisting of 4 charter members (aka an original or founding member of a society or organization) can be created with only 3 people and no mention of said group. Sounds magical.

 

So many things wrong with this statement. Nowhere in BB 60 does it say there are only "four charter members" of the group. Robin doesn't reference four charter members. Instead, he strongly implies that there are only three members by stating: "Teen Titans is a group I set up, after Kid Flash, Aqualad, and I helped the kids of Hatton Corners." The strong implication, consistent with the last panel of BB 54, is that the "new group" started with Robin, Kid Flash and Aqualad. Robin doesn't even mention Wonder Girl, let alone as a "charter member." Your assumption of four original members is contrary to the continuity, where the first adventure and origin of the group in BB 54 features three members. Fans/scholars have long recognized, as the quotes I posted in the above posts evidence, that BB 60 featured the addition of a new member to the team.

 

Exactly what I thought - magic Lima beans.

 

Glad to know you are the protector of incorrect information since you continually make assumptions based on faulty information, ignore posts correcting these, and revert back to past arguments that are lacking in logic. But don't fret you are winning - everyone can see that.

 

Have fun guys - I'm done and so should this thread.

Quit attacking people...

This is kind of astonishing to me. You include my specific quote "act as a formally constituted team" and then in your refutation say only that they "act as a team." Which doesn't refute my point: They are not a formally constituted team in B&B54.

 

And the Avengers aren't either during their adventure in Avengers 1. It is not unusual for comic teams to "formally constitute" after their first adventure together. In Avengers 1 they chose a team name in the last panels. In BB 54, they just announced a "new team." It's a distinction that only matters if you care more about trademarks than substance, and as the views towards TTA 27 and BB 54 show, most folks care about the substance.

You didn't address my point--which was that I made an assertion about the formal constitution of the team and you then refuted a different point as if it were the same. That's also known as not refuting an argument.

I'm not familiar with Avengers 1, but if you're right that they form a team (not ACT as a team, but FORM a team) in the story and choose a name in that issue, well, that'd be two things that don't happen in BB 54.

And for the record, I don't care about trademarks and have no idea whether or when "Teen Titans' was trademarked. No one's arguing with you about trademarks, so unless you want to trademark Straw-Man you might want to drop that point.

BB 54 is a "prototype" issue and BB 60 is the first appearance. If I remember the publishing history correctly BB 60 and the teen titans were launched because of a positive response from readers to BB 54. One can argue which issue is more important. But the team was not formed until after BB54.

 

Also if one reads the books it is pretty hard to argue against.

 

This is probably the most telling panel in BB60:

 

This.

Of course, at the end of B&B 54, after the adventure is concluded, it states: "Once again, a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!"

 

Sorry you are the one mistaken in regards to that last panel in BB 54 - You really are confusing what this statement means to try and prove your point and continually keep posting it without knowing the back story - the fact it starts with "once again" should have told you that this occurred before in these Brave and the Bold books. The team ups starting with Issue 50 were considered new teams by definition and not something special just for 54 which you continually harp on.

 

Don't believe me ?

 

This.

And lets not forget this. DC's "official" position..........