Reasonable Price for ASM 361

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Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

 

Thank you for the input Jim. However I am struggling to find any "key first appearances" in any of those walking dead books, or the Web of spiderman book. I will admit to having read none of them, though CGC does not denote any "key" first appearances on any of the labels. So it does not appear these are an apples to apples comparison. 

 

Whetteon, the GPA numbers are misleading and do not tell the whole story. As of now there are 15-20 copies of asm 361 second printing available, most of them are raw. As additional copies hit the census, the perception of "rarity" will evaporate. Very little in the copper age is "rare". Since this is apparently the only basis for it's value, prices will moderate, if not decline, while the first printing will inevitable march onward and upward. That is history's pattern. I'm an odds man and I like to play them safe. Asm 361 is the "key". It's second printing is an interesting curiosity, at best. If you're an avid collector you'll want both. If you just want the first appearance you'll only want/need the first printing. Most people fall in the latter category.

 

-J.

I can think of 3 Walking Dead 1st appearance's that have hit $100 off the top of my head. Two others over $50.

The term "rare" is all based on one's own opinion. There is no definition in regards to comics. To some rare could mean 500 copies, others it could be in relation to another book of the same time period.

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today.

Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print.

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today.

 

Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print.

Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story.

And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios.

Jim

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today.

 

Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print.

 

Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story.

 

And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios.

 

Jim

Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen. I do not find the comparison to asm 361 to be persuasive. Asm 361 is a bona fide first (full) appearance and is a generally accepted copper age key. Hence why the first printing is valuable. This is not a situation where we are talking about a first printing of a fairly meaningless or marginal book, that got a reprint for whatever reason with a different or cooler cover. Asm 361 first print is valuable and the second print is valuable because the first print is valuable- ie, it is the second printing of the first appearance of a popular copper age character. My only point is that as additional copies of the second printing hit the census, in all likelihood, the second printing will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing value-wise, which is the case 99.999999% of the time. To state or believe otherwise, quite simply, would run counter to decades of precedent.

-J.

I think the thing that's being overlooked here, but that we all inherently know, is that it's a bit pointless to try to establish an absolute regarding collecting. In this argument, we're basically dealing with three types of collectors; first appearance hunters, reprint hunters, and completists. Considering that there are different numbers of those types of collectors (and the numbers could be changing all the time), and that each book has its own unique set of characteristics (print run, importance of characters and creators, availability in high grade). Mix all of those factors together and you can cherry pick data to illustrate pretty much any argument, but when you look at everything as a whole you'll see that there aren't going to be any absolutes, especially as collectors enter or leave the market or change their collecting focus.

 

+1

 

This. (thumbs u

 

-J.

Oh, you like that, huh?

So do I!

It's the epitome of my quote 'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds', the very quote you proceeded to argue a couple of pages back. There are no absolutes.

And, speaking of consistencies, what is it with your collection of different sized scans? Do you have 20 different printers?

I'm not sure if #361 2nd printing is rare but I do know that the market is showing an interest in this comic. Heck, I never thought an Amazing Spider-Man #361 CGC 9.8 1st printing would clear $200 but yet here we are. And Amazing Spider-Man #361 2nd printing seems to be right behind it. Feel free to argue about rarity but it's hard to debate the facts.

This is one of the rare instances that the first prints seem more desirable than the second. I've noticed this on raws, as well as graded:

 

At this time that appears to be true. The gap is closing recently. Last year it was crazy to see a 2nd printing get over $100+ in 9.8. This year they have been sales of 9.8 2nd printing in the $200's. That's a big gain in less than 365. Just right behind the 1st printing in 9.8 also in the $200's. I'm interested to see if the 2nd printing pulls ahead.

(thumbs u

 

If the only thing significant about the book is its current perception of "rarity", I wouldn't count on it. The vast majority of collectors want the first print of books like this. The second printing doesn't rank much above novelty status. It is the first print that is the "key". It is the first print that will go NM 98-style nuclear if/when a movie announcement is made, and it will be the one everyone will be chasing. (thumbs u

 

-J.

Be careful.

 

'A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.'

 

There are a number of examples now where later printings are more desirable. You may end up being right, but I could see things going he other way.

 

 

"Past performance is the best predictor of future success.".

 

Name one first appearance "key" where a second or subsequent printing is worth more than the first printing (other than the clearly anomalous MOS 18).

 

-J.

 

You've just qualified the argument beyond the parameters that 500 stated.

 

And why is MOS #18 "clearly anomalous"?

 

What if "Hush" becomes a very popular character?

 

Batman #608 second print is worth substantially more than the first.

 

Nearly 30 years ago, the 2nd print of Adventurers #1 was worth much more, because it was the first appearance of Elf Warrior.

 

It is not without precedent.

 

So that's a "none" from RMA.

No, that's not a "none." You already have 3 examples. 3 > none or "none."

And there's nothing "qualified" about the comparison at all.

Sure there is! You added the qualification of "key first appearance", when 500 quite clearly stated that he was talking about later printings in general.

That, sir, is the definition of a qualification.

The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell.

 

-J.

No one is disagreeing with your contention that first prints are the desirable one. That is quite obviously and self-evidently true. But you ignore the exceptions that make the rule, which is the issue.

 

And, speaking of consistencies, what is it with your collection of different sized scans? Do you have 20 different printers?

Paging Bronzejonny...will Bronzejonny please report to the ASM 361 reasonable price thread...potential occurrence of lowest example of class ever witnessed on the boards in progress....

"Past performance is the best predictor of future success.".

This IS true. I'll add to it below.

Name one first appearance "key" where a second or subsequent printing is worth more than the first printing (other than the clearly anomalous MOS 18).

 

-J.

None significant, that I can come up with. Just MOS 18, and now ASM 361 is threatening to be the second. However, that's not two out of thousands. There's only so many key first apps in the 1987 to 1995 time frame that had later printings. To the above, I can think of NM 87 and NM 100, and NM 100 is pretty soft.

So, in terms of past performance, I'm going to take into account the rise of MOS 4th and 5th printings, and the trend towards the ASM 361 second printing. I think there's enough going on to not dismiss the idea that the hobby may gravitate to these later printings.

By the way....for those counting, there are multiple examples of second printings that are worth more than firsts..

"So Much Fun", for example, are worth substantially more...and they are later printings.

The aforementioned Hulk #377 3rd.

ALL the JCPenney books (X-Men #268, DD #272, etc.)

The Pressman books (reprints.)

Detective Comics #659 third, 660 third, Batman #492 third, Superman #75 4th printing newsstand. Green Lantern #51 2nd (look! First appearance!)

Batman #608, 612.

Numerous Image variants.

Let's not forget Spawn #1 Black & White, which is worth FAR more than Spawn #1, and is ALSO a first appearance.

(It was late last night, and I was tired. )

By the way....MANY of the New 52 second and later printings are selling for substantially more than the firsts...

In order for a hypothesis to be proven correct, the results need to be repeatable.

The market is an organic, living, breathing entity, not a chemistry experiment.

As such, you can only observe what is, and has been, and not what might be.

 

Walking Dead #33 and #34 are also books where the 2nd prints command much higher prices than their first print counterparts. With #33 being a "key"

 

And although GPA shows them to be about the same, WD #2 second print is more desired amongst WD collectors than the first print would be.

 

I'd also bet dollars to doughnuts that a Vengeance of Bane 9.8 third print would smoke the GPA price of a 9.8 first print, but alas none exist.

 

Jim

More excellent examples.

The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell.

 

-J.

I find this argument specious. The reverse is the suggestion you have no second prints, hence your stance.

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

 

Thank you for the input Jim. However I am struggling to find any "key first appearances" in any of those walking dead books, or the Web of spiderman book. I will admit to having read none of them, though CGC does not denote any "key" first appearances on any of the labels. So it does not appear these are an apples to apples comparison. 

Web of Spiderman #118 is the first appearance of the Scarlet Spider, Ben Reilly in costume.

Whetteon, the GPA numbers are misleading and do not tell the whole story. As of now there are 15-20 copies of asm 361 second printing available, most of them are raw. As additional copies hit the census, the perception of "rarity" will evaporate. Very little in the copper age is "rare". Since this is apparently the only basis for it's value, prices will moderate, if not decline, while the first printing will inevitable march onward and upward. That is history's pattern.

What...?

"First prints will inevitable (sic) march onward and upward. That is history's pattern"...??

Since WHEN?

In order for a hypothesis to be proven correct, the results need to be repeatable.

 

The market is an organic, living, breathing entity, not a chemistry experiment.

 

As such, you can only observe what is, and has been, and not what might be.

This I agree with. But like I said earlier, I'm a numbers man, and I like to play the odds. (thumbs u

And I'll let you field the question, if you wish, about why the scans in my sig line do not appear uniform, since we've already been down that "classy" road already.

-J.

The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell.

 

-J.

 

I find this argument specious. The reverse is the suggestion you have no second prints, hence your stance.

(thumbs u

Correct. I have no second prints. I only collect key first appearances/origins and actually rare variants. See sig line below.

-J.

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today.

 

Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print.

 

Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story.

 

And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios.

 

Jim

 

Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen.

Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature.

I do not find the comparison to asm 361 to be persuasive. Asm 361 is a bona fide first (full) appearance and is a generally accepted copper age key. Hence why the first printing is valuable. This is not a situation where we are talking about a first printing of a fairly meaningless or marginal book, that got a reprint for whatever reason with a different or cooler cover. Asm 361 first print is valuable and the second print is valuable because the first print is valuable- ie, it is the second printing of the first appearance of a popular copper age character. My only point is that as additional copies of the second printing hit the census, in all likelihood, the second printing will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing value-wise, which is the case 99.999999% of the time. To state or believe otherwise, quite simply, would run counter to decades of precedent.

 

-J.

You say such weird, absolutist things.

Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years.

As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"...

Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"?

What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so.

And will you also tell me how you can state that ANYTHING in the market will be "permanent"...?

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today.

 

Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print.

 

Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story.

 

And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios.

 

Jim

 

Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen.

 

Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature.

 

I do not find the comparison to asm 361 to be persuasive. Asm 361 is a bona fide first (full) appearance and is a generally accepted copper age key. Hence why the first printing is valuable. This is not a situation where we are talking about a first printing of a fairly meaningless or marginal book, that got a reprint for whatever reason with a different or cooler cover. Asm 361 first print is valuable and the second print is valuable because the first print is valuable- ie, it is the second printing of the first appearance of a popular copper age character. My only point is that as additional copies of the second printing hit the census, in all likelihood, the second printing will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing value-wise, which is the case 99.999999% of the time. To state or believe otherwise, quite simply, would run counter to decades of precedent.

 

-J.

 

You say such weird, absolutist things.

 

 

Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years.

 

As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"...

 

Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"?

 

What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so.

Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u

And Web 118 does not constitute a "key first appearance". Sorry.

-J.

The collector base at large wants first prints. If you like chasing unicorns, trying to prove the world wrong, be my guest. But my gut tells me the more likely scenario is you have a batch of second prints to sell.

 

-J.

 

I find this argument specious. The reverse is the suggestion you have no second prints, hence your stance.

Jaydog has said many times, and implied even more times, that those who disagree with him are only doing so to protect the market that he thinks they have.

By his reasoning, I have cases of Cerebus #1, Spidy #301, Spidey #361 2nd printing, and NO copies of Sandman #8 variant.

No one disagrees with him because they find his positions to be untenable, and unsupported by the evidence...no, it's just to protect their market.

Oh yeah...Web of Spidey #118, key book, first appearance, the second print will sell across the board in any grade for more than a first print will.

 

Jim

 

This. WoS #118 contains the first appearance of Scarlet Spider. He played a pretty big role at the time and still has fans today.

 

Also, while not a first appearance, the second print of Spider-Man 2099 #1 sells for much much more than the first print.

 

Exactly...noted on a CGC label as first Solo clone story.

 

And WD #33 might not be a key first appearance but a key nonetheless. It's not as random as WD #34, hence why I brought it up and offered both scenarios.

 

Jim

 

Web 118 isn't acknowledged as a key first appearance in any literature I have seen.

 

Well, the answer, then, is to read more literature.

 

I do not find the comparison to asm 361 to be persuasive. Asm 361 is a bona fide first (full) appearance and is a generally accepted copper age key. Hence why the first printing is valuable. This is not a situation where we are talking about a first printing of a fairly meaningless or marginal book, that got a reprint for whatever reason with a different or cooler cover. Asm 361 first print is valuable and the second print is valuable because the first print is valuable- ie, it is the second printing of the first appearance of a popular copper age character. My only point is that as additional copies of the second printing hit the census, in all likelihood, the second printing will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing value-wise, which is the case 99.999999% of the time. To state or believe otherwise, quite simply, would run counter to decades of precedent.

 

-J.

 

You say such weird, absolutist things.

 

 

Spidey #361, like most Copper books, faded into obscurity in the late 90's/early 2000's, and while not a dollar book, certainly wasn't even a $10 book until the last couple of years.

 

As far as your claim that "the second will permanently cede its positioning to the first printing, which is the case 99.9999999% of the time"...

 

Will you please tell me the OTHER examples that make up this "99.999999%"?

 

What "decades of precedent" are you talking about? Later printings didn't even EXIST in mainstream comics until the late 70's, and were utterly ignored until just the last 5 years or so.

 

Bingo! You answered your own question. (thumbs u

That answered nothing. What "decades of precedent" are you referring to, where a later printing was TEMPORARILY more valuable than the first printing, then "ceded its positioning" to the first...?

Hmmm...?

And Web 118 does not constitute a "key first appearance". Sorry.

 

-J.

That's your opinion. The market disagrees with you. Again.