Miller/Janson DD?

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Why does this even matter? Obviously no one can tell by looking at the pages. The art is the art - Miller breakdowns and Janson finishes, regardless of who "touched" the paper.

+1

As someone who has been looking for a great Miller/Janson page for years (and still is; hint , I can reassure all those who are worried about the economic consequences of such an investigation. As long as I like the art, I would pay exactly the same if the page was actually touched by Miller or not.

Every page credited to FM and KJ is the child of both artists and part of one of the absolute best runs in comics history.

I don't care at all if Miller is responsible of 30% of the art or 70%; as long as the page looks great, knowing Miller was involved is enough for me. It's because it's a historic run with much nostalgia involved : the way the art was achieved is much less important than the sentimental value of the art. And I'm obviously not the only fan of this run who thinks like that.

I have to admit I'm a much lesser fan of the art at the end of the run. It's not because Miller hasn't actually touched it officially, but simply because of aesthetic reasons. For the pages I love, I would not change my offers on Miller DD pages in any way if I was told that this or that page had actually not been touched by Miller. If I consider it one of the best pages of the Miller run, nothing can change that.

On the other hand, I would never buy a page from issues that Miller did not -script himself.

If I consider it one of the best pages of the Miller run, nothing can change that.

Agreed. Except I would only want to own pages that had been touched by Frank Miller.

As a fan of the Daredevil series and a collector of Frank Miller art, I would love to find the 8 x11 thumbnail layouts for DD 179 and 181.

If I consider it one of the best pages of the Miller run, nothing can change that.

 

Agreed. Except I would only want to own pages that had been touched by Frank Miller.

 

As a fan of the Daredevil series and a collector of Frank Miller art, I would love to find the 8 x11 thumbnail layouts for DD 179 and 181.

 

If there are in fact 8 x 11 layouts. I believe this has yet to be proven. If someone could produce one that would certainly back up KJ's 2012 statements.

If Miller was in fact doing 8.5x11 layouts on a separate sheet for DD179-181, it could explain how Terry Austin was able to do his own version of the inks for certain pages from DD181 that were used in What If #35.

He either forgot or deliberately didn't disclose the fact that Miller did 11x17 boards on 182 and 184, which Nelson has copies of. Again, this is called evidence.

 

Given the rescheduling of the #182-#184, I don't find it implausible that there may have been reasons why these issues were created in a different fashion than #179-#181 (to maintain consistency, for example). That's definitely a question to be posed to Klaus and Frank if anyone can pin them down. As for Nelson's copies, I think everybody wants to see scans of these so we know exactly what we are dealing with.

 

Even if we can prove that #182-#184 were all done by Miller's pencils on board, to me, that wouldn't necessarily invalidate Klaus' statement if he recalls that those issues were done that way because they were started that way, but the other issues weren't. If he says, no, no, those were separate sheets too, then I can believe that he was just wrong about #179-#181 as well. But, right now, I don't see anything even remotely resembling a smoking gun.

 

If he's at the NYCC again this year, let's go ask him.

 

His testimony has already been proven to be.... let's call it "incomplete."

 

I've got to say something doesn't smell right about the 2012 comments by Janson. Hasn't there been a falling out between Miller and Janson? Nelson's comments and description of the scans also seem to contradict Rubinstein's comments that Miller just provided squiggles for that book. Maybe inkers just don't like Frank Miller, Maybe they feel he gets too much credit. All I know is the thing that's odd about the 2012 comments is that it took 30 years for this sentiment to surface. I find that more troubling than the idea that Janson can't remember 30 years ago. J Sid's point is that how is there radio silence on this issue for 30 years and then "BTW, I was really doing pencils on one of the most celebrated runs in comic book history 6 issues earlier than everyone thought." Not trying to impugn Janson's integrity, but it just strikes me (and a lot of other people) as quite odd.

Didn't the falling out occur via 3rd party? From all the interviews I've seen or heard it seems like Miller just cut off contact completely with janson during or shortly after DKR.

Did miller ever even talked to janson about what happened directly.

Wasn't he told 3rd party that Frank was upset Klaus farming out DKR pages to assistants. Janson was asked about this on a (terribly conducted) podcast a few years ago and if i remember right seemed genuinely confounded by lack of communication with Frank over the years.

I think the story janson said he was given from a 3rd party was that Frank had come back from vacation and saw some pages which he felt were "hacked out" &someone at the DC offices told him janson was farming out the last book of DKR to assistants. Frank got really upset and started reinking panels and their collaboration came to an abrupt end. Maybe Frank just wanted to go solo and needed to break the personal and professional relationship to do it?

Thanks to Nelson who brought photocopies of Miller's pencils to DD #182, 184 and Wolverine LS #1 to the show today. I don't know if he mentioned it before, but he found these at a garage or yard sale in Brooklyn - apparently the house was rented by a Marvel editor/staffer of some sort, who left behind all these photocopies which were then sold. Amazing that Nelson was able to recover these before they were lost to the world.

I can confirm that every page from DD #182 and #184 are finished Miller layouts directly on the board. There are a few of us who are going to try and track down Janson at the show tomorrow and show him that these issues were done directly on the board, and to see if there was a reason #179-#181 were done on separate sheet layouts or whether he was mistaken and these too were layouts directly on the board. I'm going to bring my DD #181 page and the TPB which features the issues in question as visual aids. So, hopefully we can get to the bottom of this tomorrow.

As for the Wolvie LS #1, they are definitely finished layouts on board as well. So, I don't know if Rubinstein was exaggerating the level of his involvement on this mini-series or if the later issues got progressively less detailed. But, as far as issue #1 goes, it is definitely detailed layouts and nothing even remotely close to loose shapes or squiggles.

Thanks to Nelson who brought photocopies of Miller's pencils to DD #182, 184 and Wolverine LS #1 to the show today. I don't know if he mentioned it before, but he found these at a garage or yard sale in Brooklyn - apparently the house was rented by a Marvel editor/staffer of some sort, who left behind all these photocopies which were then sold. Amazing that Nelson was able to recover these before they were lost to the world.

 

I can confirm that every page from DD #182 and #184 are finished Miller layouts directly on the board. There are a few of us who are going to try and track down Janson at the show tomorrow and show him that these issues were done directly on the board, and to see if there was a reason #179-#181 were done on separate sheet layouts or whether he was mistaken and these too were layouts directly on the board. I'm going to bring my DD #181 page and the TPB which features the issues in question as visual aids. So, hopefully we can get to the bottom of this tomorrow.

 

As for the Wolvie LS #1, they are definitely finished layouts on board as well. So, I don't know if Rubinstein was exaggerating the level of his involvement on this mini-series or if the later issues got progressively less detailed. But, as far as issue #1 goes, it is definitely detailed layouts and nothing even remotely close to loose shapes or squiggles.

Gene,

thanks so much for confirming this. I thought I could make my first comic con this year but sadly no such luck. I would drove to hear Klaus comments once you track him down.

thanks chris

A few of us talked at length with Klaus today on this subject. We had some #176 pages with us (that we know are Miller layouts on the board), I brought my #181 page (which was one of the issues that we weren't sure about) and Nelson brought a bunch of his photocopied Miller pencils with him as well. After reviewing the artwork and the photocopies, Klaus believes that the separate sheet layouts started with #185 after all. He said that his & Frank's artistic relationship was a progression, so that when Frank went to the separate sheet layouts, they never went back to layouts on board. As such, since we know from Nelson's archives that #182 and #184 were both Miller pencils on the board, we can deduce that #185 was the start of the separate sheet layouts.

Furthermore, Klaus said that the handwritten "DAREDEVIL" at the top of pages was written by Frank when he did pencils on the board (at some point this becomes "DAREDEVIL" using a rubber stamp). But, you'll notice from #185 that it became handwritten again - "DD #___" is what it says for a few issues before it becomes "Daredevil" written in -script. The latter is definitely confirmed to be Klaus' notation on pages done with separate sheet layouts, and it stands to reason that the former is also Klaus, as it's not Frank's writing. I think this bolsters the case for #185 being the start.

As for Klaus getting all of the #181 art back, he confirmed that sometimes they would trade off getting full books as opposed to splitting up the pages in each issue. So, even if he got the whole #181 book back, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank didn't do pencils on the board.

Bottom line: I'm satisfied at this point that any stylistic changes we see between #178 and #179-#184 is just the progression of the artwork over time and that separate sheet layouts did begin with #185 after all.

Thanks Gene

Thanks for doing the footwork on this, Gene. I love this period of DD and it's always interesting and fun to get more information on it...

Thanks, Gene. Now let's hope that Auction houses and art dealers take note about this, and from this moment on, they describe the pages according to this info, and stop fooling with descriptions, which only harms their reputations.

Let's not forget a HUGE thank you to Nelson!!!

Ron

Thanks Gene

+1, good info

Let's not forget a HUGE thank you to Nelson!!!

 

Ron

Yes, thanks to Nelson and Cheeky Joe - it was definitely a team effort to get to the bottom of this!

This is fantastic detective work -- thank you for answering the question I posted 22 pages ago. I had no idea what an adventure it would be, but it's what I love about the hobby when it works -- better-informed collectors are a good thing.

It's a coincidence, because I just came across this ad from Tony Dispoto in an old CBG which provides info about a particular piece.

He talks about a calendar piece, but from his description maybe he refers to the plate from the Marvel Team-Up portfolio:

So, with this information, are there people out there that wish they hadn't passed on the DD #181 page that was recently in ComicLink because of the rumor that it was not full pencils?

On the comicart-l and the CGC OA board, we have had a long conversation on the topic of the work split on the Miller DD run. This write-up is based on e-mails and posting from many people. Foremost among them are: Mitch Itkowitz, Ferran Delgado, Gene Park (notes on 158, 162, 163, 179-180), and Mike O'Halloran (Theory on 182-184), and NelsonAl (photocopies of 182 and 184; see below for their origin). I took notes and created this summary. I believe it represents the best understanding available to us, but it may not be perfect. Other comments are welcome and especially if they come with evidence that I can cite.

Hope this helps. Be sure to save and reference!

Here's the link to this post:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=6672890&Number=8096297#Post8096297

The consensus of how Miller/Janson exectuted the "Miller" DD run is as follows:

• DD #158-161,163-172: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Janson.
  Notes:
  
  • Rubinstein was the cover inker for #158
    
  • Ditko did all the art for #162
    
  • Rubinstein was the co-inker (with Janson) for #163
    
  • Issue 168 - GCD lists Miller as breakdown artist on issue 168 while the credits on the issue itself list Miller as artist but Janson as Inker and Embellisher.
    

    [Regarding credits on 168 - ed], I would be hesitant to describe this as the same relationship when it comes to the division of labour where art is concerned in issues 173 on. I think, by looking at the art that what might be described as Miller "breakdowns" are closer to a finished product when it comes to 168, but given the public notations, I thought it was worth mentioning.

  [*]DD #173-184: Layouts by Miller on the same sheet, embellishment by Janson

  [*]DD #185-190: Layouts by Miller on a DIFFERENT smaller sheet, embellishment by Janson. Miller didn't touch the published original art.

  [*]DD #191: Full pencils by Miller, inks by Austin

The above summary was derived from a lot of evidence and speculation. I'm going to try and capture that in the following notes:

• The style of the art shifted between 178 and 179-184, this made people wonder if the working method had changed.
  
• There was once a theory that since issues 182-184 (Punisher arc) were originally intended for an earlier publication and since we know that from 185 on that Miller provided smaller pages with breakdowns that there might have a mix of (Miller pencils/Janson inks) and all Jansen pages from Miller layouts in those issues. It might be difficult to know who actually did what as the story was altered for the revised publication and changed situation.
  
• Adding to the confusion was this comment posted by Klaus. In it he clearly states:

  Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185.

• MikeyO, the articulator of the theory in the note above, later wrote:
  

  My theory is logical but needs support from other sources. Some one could counter and say the previous art drawn by Miller a year and a half or so ago may have been used as a complete issue (perhaps issue 183?). My guess is that other pages were inserted but I still think verification is necessary.
   
  Mitch [itkowitz - ed] had responded that your previous supposition was correct (that Miller went to breakdowns and Janson finished on the same page for 182 to 184), but if you think about the possible rationalization that Mitch is using to assume this you can determine he may be coming to an erroneous conclusion. As Mitch said he got the whole issue of 181 from Janson to sell because he essentially drew the issue, so Mitch would assume any issue he received the complete book would be done in this method and any book where Mitch received only partial pages to an issue would indicate that Miller did breakdowns on the page and Janson finished. The problem with that logic is that as we have discussed that some pages to issues 182-4 would have been done by Miller more than a year ago and obviously returned to him and Janson could still be working the procedure of following Miller layouts on 8 by 11 paper that was instituted with issue 181 on the pages that were added to issues 182-4. Therefore, Mitch would not get a complete book as Miller would get his pages back even though they were done many months ago but Janson could still be the only person that added anything new.
   
  Others have said that the Punisher storyline was meant for issue 167 as a one part story. As said, my rationale is that they added pages to make up a two part story. Evidence to lend credence to my theory is given by Grand Comic Book Database that credits Roger McKenzie as the co writer for issue 183 and 184. Roger's last story on DD was issue 167 and after that he was done with the title, so they are obviously crediting him with both issues as they broke up the one issue and expanded into two. Now, the question is was the new art done by the process started in 181 or did Miller work on the same sheet as Janson? It's bending a little towards the former, but not a dunk yet.

• New information was presented by NelsonAl in a post on the CGC boards that indicated that he had photocopies of the pencils for issues 168 (described as "crappy") and DD issues 182 and 184. This really galvanized the conversation since it contradicted Klaus' statement.
  
• At the 2014 NYCC, Nelson and Gene discussed the issue with Klaus. Here's what Gene wrote:

  A few of us talked at length with Klaus today on this subject. We had some #176 pages with us (that we know are Miller layouts on the board), I brought my #181 page (which was one of the issues that we weren't sure about) and Nelson brought a bunch of his photocopied Miller pencils with him as well. After reviewing the artwork and the photocopies, Klaus believes that the separate sheet layouts started with #185 after all. He said that his & Frank's artistic relationship was a progression, so that when Frank went to the separate sheet layouts, they never went back to layouts on board. As such, since we know from Nelson's archives that #182 and #184 were both Miller pencils on the board, we can deduce that #185 was the start of the separate sheet layouts.
   
  Furthermore, Klaus said that the handwritten "DAREDEVIL" at the top of pages was written by Frank when he did pencils on the board (at some point this becomes "DAREDEVIL" using a rubber stamp). But, you'll notice from #185 that it became handwritten again - "DD #___" is what it says for a few issues before it becomes "Daredevil" written in -script. The latter is definitely confirmed to be Klaus' notation on pages done with separate sheet layouts, and it stands to reason that the former is also Klaus, as it's not Frank's writing. I think this bolsters the case for #185 being the start.
   
  As for Klaus getting all of the #181 art back, he confirmed that sometimes they would trade off getting full books as opposed to splitting up the pages in each issue. So, even if he got the whole #181 book back, that doesn't necessarily mean that Frank didn't do pencils on the board.
   
  Bottom line: I'm satisfied at this point that any stylistic changes we see between #178 and #179-#184 is just the progression of the artwork over time and that separate sheet layouts did begin with #185 after all.

• One last comment on this from Gene. It includes the origin of the photocopies from Nelson.

  Thanks to Nelson who brought photocopies of Miller's pencils to DD #182, 184 and Wolverine LS #1 to the show today. I don't know if he mentioned it before, but he found these at a garage or yard sale in Brooklyn - apparently the house was rented by a Marvel editor/staffer of some sort, who left behind all these photocopies which were then sold. Amazing that Nelson was able to recover these before they were lost to the world.
   
  I can confirm that every page from DD #182 and #184 are finished Miller layouts directly on the board. There are a few of us who are going to try and track down Janson at the show tomorrow and show him that these issues were done directly on the board, and to see if there was a reason #179-#181 were done on separate sheet layouts or whether he was mistaken and these too were layouts directly on the board. I'm going to bring my DD #181 page and the TPB which features the issues in question as visual aids. So, hopefully we can get to the bottom of this tomorrow.
   
  As for the Wolvie LS #1, they are definitely finished layouts on board as well. So, I don't know if Rubinstein was exaggerating the level of his involvement on this mini-series or if the later issues got progressively less detailed. But, as far as issue #1 goes, it is definitely detailed layouts and nothing even remotely close to loose shapes or squiggles.

It was great catching up with fellow comic geeks at NYCC.

Just a quick clarification on the copies of Miller's pencils on Wolverine ...... OT

I have pages from issues # 1 and # 3. Gene referencd it as issue #1 only. The combined pile was a few pages from each issue.

The art has detailed layouts throughout with notations from FM to both Joe Rubenstein and Chris Claremont. Joe should be given props for being the finisher but Miller clearly did detailed layouts on the entire series. From the very beginning, FM drew Logan as Clint Eastwood. The pages from issue # 3 also show FM drawing Logan's face very clearly.

Now back to DD .....

Cheers!

N.

P.S.

I have some copies of FM pencils from # 191. FM did detailed layouts not full pencils. Austin did finishes.

Let's not forget a HUGE thank you to Nelson!!!

 

Ron

 

Yes, thanks to Nelson and Cheeky Joe - it was definitely a team effort to get to the bottom of this!

I wish you guys shot video of this outing and talk with klaus, it would have been much fun to watch