Miller/Janson DD?

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Psst ...

I have been sharing information.

I think my copies are more reliable than the memories of FM, KJ, and JR. Hell, I have trouble remembering what I ate for lunch yesterday so who would not have fuzzy memories from 30 years ago.

 

 

Again, I'm not part of any discussion group outside of CGC. I only chimed in recently when I read this thread and thought I could contribute in a positive manner.

 

Cheers!

N.

I'm not doubting your assessment. I'm agreeing that your copies of the pencils can end this debate once and for all. A picture is worth a thousand words.

I lugged the copies to NYCC several years ago so a few collectors saw them in person. Other collectors were not interested in seeing them.

You found an eager audience here at CGC and I'm sure you're scans would get a warm welcome over at comic art fans.

Several years ago on these chat boards I provided a scan of a DD / Kingpin page which showed FM's detailed layouts. My scanner was working then. The OA was up for auction and my scan helped clarify questions about FM's pencils.

Can someone help nelson out with scanning!

Psst ...

I have been sharing information.

I think my copies are more reliable than the memories of FM, KJ, and JR. Hell, I have trouble remembering what I ate for lunch yesterday so who would not have fuzzy memories from 30 years ago.

 

 

Again, I'm not part of any discussion group outside of CGC. I only chimed in recently when I read this thread and thought I could contribute in a positive manner.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

I'm not doubting your assessment. I'm agreeing that your copies of the pencils can end this debate once and for all. A picture is worth a thousand words.

 

I lugged the copies to NYCC several years ago so a few collectors saw them in person. Other collectors were not interested in seeing them.

 

You found an eager audience here at CGC and I'm sure you're scans would get a warm welcome over at comic art fans.

 

Several years ago on these chat boards I provided a scan of a DD / Kingpin page which showed FM's detailed layouts. My scanner was working then. The OA was up for auction and my scan helped clarify questions about FM's pencils.

 

Can someone help nelson out with scanning!

I have an A3 scanner and would love this chore.

What City do you live in, Nelson?

 

My head is starting to spin here. IS it your position that miller put pencil to board on 178 -184 or are there certain issues where you disagree with this statement?

 

I think he put pencil to board up until 185.

 

Also of note, the letters page scan I posted was from issue 188. So when they say "the last few issues" this means a few issues back from DD188, not a few issues back from DD185.

Ok, thanks for the clarification, We are in agreement.

With all due respect to the inkers/finishers, the memories of Klaus and Joe may be a bit fuzzy after all these years.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Klaus' statement, even after 30 years - he recognizes that popular belief is that the separate sheet layouts began with #185, but specifically corrected that misconception and said that #179 was the starting point. It's not like he said "it wasn't #185, it was sometime earlier, maybe #179 or #180, somewhere around then, I don't really remember". It's also not like Klaus worked on so many issues of Daredevil with Frank, and only between 6 and 12 of them were using the separate sheet layouts. I'm an owner of a #181 page, and it would benefit me if it was revealed that Frank penciled #181 on the board. But, I believe Klaus would remember if he penciled that issue from Miller layouts on board or from separate sheets (I met him last year and his mind is very sharp; we discussed some other art he did in the early 1980s which he remembered with great clarity). I'm going to try to track him down again and confirm the certitude of what he said, but, as for now, I feel like he should be given the benefit of the doubt and have changed the attribution online for my #181 page to Miller layouts, as I feel that is very likely to be correct.

I'm willing to keep an open mind about #182-#184, though, given that we know at least part of these issues were drawn at a time when Miller was doing full pencils on board. Perhaps for style/consistency's sake, Miller decided to do new pages directly on board? Who knows, there could be any number of reasons why #179-#181 could have been separate sheets and #182-#184 might not have been. Do you have the complete #182 and #184 layouts copied? Are we sure they are all Miller pencils (and not Janson) on full-sized board? Is everything detailed layouts or are some detailed layouts and some full pencils? Are some pages labeled #167 and some #182?

Well, we've seen the 8.5x11 layout pages from several issues. Can anyone produce one from 181 or 179?

With all due respect to the inkers/finishers, the memories of Klaus and Joe may be a bit fuzzy after all these years.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Klaus' statement, even after 30 years - he recognizes that popular belief is that the separate sheet layouts began with #185, but specifically corrected that misconception and said that #179 was the starting point. It's not like he said "it wasn't #185, it was sometime earlier, maybe #179 or #180, somewhere around then, I don't really remember". It's also not like Klaus worked on so many issues of Daredevil with Frank, and only between 6 and 12 of them were using the separate sheet layouts. I'm an owner of a #181 page, and it would benefit me if it was revealed that Frank penciled #181 on the board. But, I believe Klaus would remember if he penciled that issue from Miller layouts on board or from separate sheets (I met him last year and his mind is very sharp; we discussed some other art he did in the early 1980s which he remembered with great clarity). I'm going to try to track him down again and confirm the certitude of what he said, but, as for now, I feel like he should be given the benefit of the doubt and have changed the attribution online for my #181 page to Miller layouts, as I feel that is very likely to be correct.

 

I'm willing to keep an open mind about #182-#184, though, given that we know at least part of these issues were drawn at a time when Miller was doing full pencils on board. Perhaps for style/consistency's sake, Miller decided to do new pages directly on board? Who knows, there could be any number of reasons why #179-#181 could have been separate sheets and #182-#184 might not have been. Do you have the complete #182 and #184 layouts copied? Are we sure they are all Miller pencils (and not Janson) on full-sized board? Is everything detailed layouts or are some detailed layouts and some full pencils? Are some pages labeled #167 and some #182?

I would not dismiss Klaus's memory either. I'm not Klause and everyone is different, but if I had been in Klause's position having been an inker for 7 or 8 years, and then switched to doing full finishes from Frank Miller's small size breakdowns all while the book was white hot and BLOWING UP, I would sure as remember. Personally, I can barely remember anything from last year or last week, but I distinctly remember every page from every issue of Xmen I inked almost 25 years ago because it mattered and I was invested. Based on the nature and the quality of Klause's work on DD, I'm guessing he was bloody well invested too and remembers everything.

Scott

Gene

Read my posts again, it'll answer most of your questions.

We can meet up for dinner after NYCC again with Felix and Lambo.

If not, we can set up lunch another time.

You can also talk to Klaus at the show.

Just promise to keep your hands dry. Wait, that sounds wrong on so many levels. .

Cheers!

N.

"The Daredevil Chronicles"

Features an interview with both Miller and Janson in conversation with an interviewer, Peter Sanderson.

The interview is not short, 19 pages long (including artwork).

The time of the interview given is exactly the timeframe in question: November 1981. DD 179 is finished and the issue is discussed by everyone during the interview. DD 181 has not come out yet. Elektra is still referenced as a living person.

Frank and Klaus and the interviewer converse at length going back and forth between discussing the characters in DD and elaborating on their working process. They talk about each other's inking differences, they talk about what it's like to collaborate with each other, they talk about Klaus' input to the series in spotting blacks and his input when it comes to coloring. Klaus talks about the differences between working with Miller on DD and working with Gene Colan on Batman.

Basically the guys blab on for 19 pages about all things Daredevil. Never once do they bring up 8.5x11 layout sheets or say that Klaus is doing the pencils. Nothing even close.

Basically the guys blab on for 19 pages about all things Daredevil. Never once do they bring up 8.5x11 layout sheets or say that Klaus is doing the pencils. Nothing even close.

I don't know that an omission like that is necessarily proof of anything - there could have been any number of reasons why they wouldn't have broached the subject of separate sheets at that time (e.g., they didn't know if it was a one-time thing or would be ongoing, or they didn't want to let on that Frank couldn't handle his work load, or to suggest to fans that Miller wasn't the one actually drawing the book since he was the big sales draw...not saying any of those apply, just that there might have been any number of possible reasons why it wouldn't have come up in that interview).

Did they talk about how Miller's pencils/breakdowns got looser and looser from #173-onward? Because that much at least we know for a fact happened.

I want to get this right. I'm looking for some sort of evidence to support Janson's 2012 claims.

I am finding no historical evidence which supports it. Have you found anything?

 

Did they talk about how Miller's pencils/breakdowns got looser and looser from #173-onward? Because that much at least we know for a fact happened.

Yes, he touches on how Frank gave him more and more room to interpret things.

I want to get this right. I'm looking for some sort of evidence to support Janson's 2012 claims.

 

I am finding no historical evidence which supports it. Have you found anything?

To me, what Klaus said should be held as proof in the absence of contradictory testimony from Miller or definitive evidence to the contrary. We can look at old interviews or the art itself and speculate, but, for me, none of that is more convincing than Klaus' very specific recollection that the separate sheets began with #179 instead of #185. If there was any doubt in his mind, he could easily have chosen not to address that issue. Not that he still couldn't have been mistaken, but I think people here are quick to assume just because a lot of time has passed that he must be mistaken when I would think something like that would not be very difficult to remember.

I want to get this right. I'm looking for some sort of evidence to support Janson's 2012 claims.

 

I am finding no historical evidence which supports it. Have you found anything?

 

To me, what Klaus said should be held as proof in the absence of contradictory testimony from Miller or definitive evidence to the contrary. We can look at old interviews or the art itself and speculate, but, for me, none of that is more convincing than Klaus' very specific recollection that the separate sheets began with #179 instead of #185. If there was any doubt in his mind, he could easily have chosen not to address that issue. Not that he still couldn't have been mistaken, but I think people here are quick to assume just because a lot of time has passed that he must be mistaken when I would think something like that would not be very difficult to remember.

I disagree.

He either forgot or deliberately didn't disclose the fact that Miller did 11x17 boards on 182 and 184, which Nelson has copies of. Again, this is called evidence.

We have several things that point to 185 as the starting point. Nothing except Janson's 30-years-later inaccurate/incomplete claim that they started with 179.

He either forgot or deliberately didn't disclose the fact that Miller did 11x17 boards on 182 and 184, which Nelson has copies of. Again, this is called evidence.

Given the rescheduling of the #182-#184, I don't find it implausible that there may have been reasons why these issues were created in a different fashion than #179-#181 (to maintain consistency, for example). That's definitely a question to be posed to Klaus and Frank if anyone can pin them down. As for Nelson's copies, I think everybody wants to see scans of these so we know exactly what we are dealing with.

Even if we can prove that #182-#184 were all done by Miller's pencils on board, to me, that wouldn't necessarily invalidate Klaus' statement if he recalls that those issues were done that way because they were started that way, but the other issues weren't. If he says, no, no, those were separate sheets too, then I can believe that he was just wrong about #179-#181 as well. But, right now, I don't see anything even remotely resembling a smoking gun.

If he's at the NYCC again this year, let's go ask him.

He either forgot or deliberately didn't disclose the fact that Miller did 11x17 boards on 182 and 184, which Nelson has copies of. Again, this is called evidence.

 

Given the rescheduling of the #182-#184, I don't find it implausible that there may have been reasons why these issues were created in a different fashion than #179-#181 (to maintain consistency, for example). That's definitely a question to be posed to Klaus and Frank if anyone can pin them down. As for Nelson's copies, I think everybody wants to see scans of these so we know exactly what we are dealing with.

 

Even if we can prove that #182-#184 were all done by Miller's pencils on board, to me, that wouldn't necessarily invalidate Klaus' statement if he recalls that those issues were done that way because they were started that way, but the other issues weren't. If he says, no, no, those were separate sheets too, then I can believe that he was just wrong about #179-#181 as well. But, right now, I don't see anything even remotely resembling a smoking gun.

 

If he's at the NYCC again this year, let's go ask him.

His testimony has already been proven to be.... let's call it "incomplete."

He either forgot or deliberately didn't disclose the fact that Miller did 11x17 boards on 182 and 184, which Nelson has copies of. Again, this is called evidence.

 

Given the rescheduling of the #182-#184, I don't find it implausible that there may have been reasons why these issues were created in a different fashion than #179-#181 (to maintain consistency, for example). That's definitely a question to be posed to Klaus and Frank if anyone can pin them down. As for Nelson's copies, I think everybody wants to see scans of these so we know exactly what we are dealing with.

 

Even if we can prove that #182-#184 were all done by Miller's pencils on board, to me, that wouldn't necessarily invalidate Klaus' statement if he recalls that those issues were done that way because they were started that way, but the other issues weren't. If he says, no, no, those were separate sheets too, then I can believe that he was just wrong about #179-#181 as well. But, right now, I don't see anything even remotely resembling a smoking gun.

 

If he's at the NYCC again this year, let's go ask him.

 

His testimony has already been proven to be.... let's call it "incomplete."

I've got to say something doesn't smell right about the 2012 comments by Janson. Hasn't there been a falling out between Miller and Janson? Nelson's comments and description of the scans also seem to contradict Rubinstein's comments that Miller just provided squiggles for that book. Maybe inkers just don't like Frank Miller, Maybe they feel he gets too much credit. All I know is the thing that's odd about the 2012 comments is that it took 30 years for this sentiment to surface. I find that more troubling than the idea that Janson can't remember 30 years ago. J Sid's point is that how is there radio silence on this issue for 30 years and then "BTW, I was really doing pencils on one of the most celebrated runs in comic book history 6 issues earlier than everyone thought." Not trying to impugn Janson's integrity, but it just strikes me (and a lot of other people) as quite odd.

I've got to say something doesn't smell right about the 2012 comments by Janson. Hasn't there been a falling out between Miller and Janson? Nelson's comments and description of the scans also seem to contradict Rubinstein's comments that Miller just provided squiggles for that book. Maybe inkers just don't like Frank Miller, Maybe they feel he gets too much credit. All I know is the thing that's odd about the 2012 comments is that it took 30 years for this sentiment to surface. I find that more troubling than the idea that Janson can't remember 30 years ago. J Sid's point is that how is there radio silence on this issue for 30 years and then "BTW, I was really doing pencils on one of the most celebrated runs in comic book history 6 issues earlier than everyone thought." Not trying to impugn Janson's integrity, but it just strikes me (and a lot of other people) as quite odd.

Here's what he said:

The work I did on DD has always been very meaningful to me for a variety of reasons, too many to get into here, but I’d like to point out a few things: Frank did an amazing job on the series and I would never take anything away from his writing or drawing. Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185. And he was doing breakdowns on the boards for a handful of issues before that.

Doesn't sound like he's angry with Frank, just that he's setting the record straight on a widely held misconception. And it sounds like his recollection is very clear and specific as to when this all went down.

As part of the community that collects Warren Vampirella art, I and others have uncovered numerous misattributions that were widely held to be true for decades. The famous Jose Gonzalez Vampirella poster painting? Not actually even touched by Gonzalez. The Vampi #37 cover and corner box image for the title by Sanjulian? Not actually touched by Sanjulian. And yet, nearly 40 years on, people still remember who did what and what really went down. My guess is we'll eventually come around to realizing Klaus' recollection was right, with possible extenuating circumstances for #182-#184. I really, really don't think he's got any vendetta against Frank (from what I've seen, he's been trying for a long time to play nice and get Frank to do another project with him) or that he's somehow trying to steal credit for something he didn't do.

The more facts the better but I do want to point out that Al has already said that the "squiggles" that are being referenced are not 100% accurate for all the pages. That he has pages that show much more detail than "squiggles" for sure.

Bottom line it is a very complex situation with a variety of opinions. Thanks everyone for helping get to the bottom of this.

More inventory ....

A3 sized photocopies, FM pencils directly on bristol:

DD 161 pgs 1 - 17.

DD 167 back up story pgs 1 - 5

DD 171 pgs 12 - 22

DD 172 pgs 10 - 22

DD 173 pgs 1 - 11

Letter sized copies, FM pencils directly on bristol:

Bizarre Adventures "The Philistine", complete story.

I'll have to sort through the Wolverine pages.

More to come.

Yes, I'll be at NYCC.

Cheers!

N.