Miller/Janson DD?

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I'll have to dig through my files again as I do have some photocopies of Miller's pencils. Random issues, some complete, some partial. Some full OA sized, some letter sized. Some clear, some smudgy.

Ferran has been asking me to scan them but I've never gotten around to it. My scanner always craps out after Microsoft does an upgrade.

Just a few comments though ....

FM and KJ had an arrangement where they received complete issues using the 2/3 1/3 split. KJ continued this arrangement with FM with DKR. It's not unusual for KJ to receive a complete issue.

Wolverine 1 - FM pencils are not as loose as people think. JR did finishes but Logan looks like how FM wanted him to look.

Cheers!

N.

It's been brought up before, but will people now start to care more about Miller's extremely loose breakdowns on the Wolverine Limited Series as well? Again, for me, it doesn't matter - I love that series and I think the art looks great, full stop. But, I've long felt that it's obvious that the look of the book was more Rubinstein than Miller (as confirmed multiple times now by Rubinstein)...will this art also receive more scrutiny as well?

It would make a world of difference to me if Miller did the layouts for the Wolverine LS on a separate piece of typing paper, like he did with the latter part of his Daredevil run. However, Joe Rubenstein confirmed that Miller did loose breakdowns on the bristol board. Since Miller did loose pencil breakdowns on the bristol board, I am comfortable with Miller's involvement with the original art from this series.

As far as the Daredevil series, it sounds like I am in the minority, but it is important to me whether Miller touched the boards. Previously I thought the cutoff was #185, and I heavily discounted the issues after #185. Now we have Klaus Janson saying that Miller started doing layouts on separate pieces of paper for issue #179. These are some of the most important issues from the run, but all things being equal, I would much rather have a page that Miller had some contact with, rather than one that is all-Klaus.

That said, I agree with consensus that DD 181 is such an important book that the value of pages form this issue is not likely to be adversely affected by the fact that he did breakdowns on a separate pieces of paper.

When I look at #182-184...especially #183....I see Miller lines throughout, which would make sense, as this was the story originally slated for #167 (aside...I love the original unpublished cover art to #167.)

 

When I look at #181, I see Miller, Janson. and Miller/Janson. For example (sorry, I don't have pages annotated)...the page with Castle, where he's doing chin-ups in prison...that looks like Miller's linework (as opposed to Klaus' mimicry.)

 

But, when you turn to the page with Bullseye shoving Elektra's sai into her....that looks like Klaus the whole page, even in the faces, even though they retain a Miller-style. The possible exception I see is the last panel on the page, but again, it could be skilled mimicry.

 

I recognize the stylistic difference in #179-up, and this has bothered me for literally decades, trying to decipher what was Miller, and what was Janson, and who did what. Even not knowing what I know now, I still saw differences in the linework that weren't entirely explainable.

 

We had the opportunity to discuss the Wolverine mini-series, among other things. It was great getting his view on how things worked, how long it took him to finish the issues, etc. I came away with a better appreciation for his work on Wolvie, which, while certainly Miller's vision, was as much Rubinstein's work, if not more.

 

I always felt the same way about wolverine. Rubinstein is all over the look of the final art. Finished art by Frank around that time had a very different aesthetic than his collaborations with Janson and Rubinstein.

I read in interviews that Frank made a conscious choice to hand over the superficial aspects of style ot Klaus Janson once he started writing. Frank's attention quickly shifted to staging and janson took over lighting/rendering. This suggests (to me) that even when when Frank was working on the art board Janson was doing a goo I think Klaus defined the line work rather than mimic/trace. Also, Miller didn't have a definitive look back then.

Even with other artist Klaus inks are so heavy handed (although he's toned it done the last 10 years) that I don't think he could mimic another artists line consistently.

 

Also, Miller didn't have a definitive look back then.

I don't agree with this, but interesting points.

 

Wolverine 1 - FM pencils are not as loose as people think. JR did finishes but Logan looks like how FM wanted him to look.

 

Cheers!

N.

 

 

Rubinstein said, a week ago, that the cover to #1 was Jack Nicholson in the Shining...but that Miller gave him a bunch of Clint Eastwood movies and told him to make Wolvie look like Clint, which Rubinstein did.

So...I guess you can say Wolvie looks how FM wanted him to look, but according to Rubinstein, the actual work was all his.

 

Also, Miller didn't have a definitive look back then.

 

I don't agree with this, but interesting points.

In general inkers had so much more latitude over the final look of the art. tight pencils as we know them today were very rare from what i understand (and have seen)

What I mean was that it looks like he deferred a lot of the final look to Klaus (and joe Rubinstein on wolverine) and focused on storytelling & composition more and more. When you look at DD 191 and Ronin Miller's aesthetics in terms of line work and spotting blacks were coming from a very different place than his work with janson.

Going through my files quickly ....

I have full sized crappy copy of DD 168 of FM's full pencils.

Artist's edition? My copies are pretty bad but probably the only thing in existence. I doubt if FM kept copies of his pencils.

I have full sized copy of DD 182 pencils. FM did detailed layouts. KJ did finishes.

I have small sized copy of DD 184 pencils. FM did detailed layouts directly on bristol. KJ did finishes.

I have a bunch of other partial issues from DD.

OT

Not to take anything away from JR but I have some small sized copies of FM's layouts from Wolverine 1 and 3 (select pages only). FM clearly drew Wolverine's face in detail. In other places, he cleared left "X" marks for JR to spot the blacks (I.e., ninjas, Yukio's figure, etc). FM drew directly on bristol.

Clint Eastwood = Logan

Robert Redford = Matt Murdoch

More to come.

Cheers!

N.

This is a great topic and I really appreciate the wealth of knowledge and information that is being shared!

 

Also, Miller didn't have a definitive look back then.

 

I don't agree with this, but interesting points.

In general inkers had so much more latitude over the final look of the art. tight pencils as we know them today were very rare from what i understand (and have seen)

 

What I mean was that it looks like he deferred a lot of the final look to Klaus (and joe Rubinstein on wolverine) and focused on storytelling & composition more and more. When you look at DD 191 and Ronin Miller's aesthetics in terms of line work and spotting blacks were coming from a very different place than his work with janson.

I understand what you're saying, and you are 100% correct that inkers were much more responsible for the finished look back then, but I don't think it's correct to say Miller didn't have his distinctive look. You can see it in Twilight Zone #84 and #85, John Carter #18, PPSM #27, 28, Unknown Soldier #219, DC Special #21, Werd War #64 & #68, and many covers, inked by Springer, McLeod, Milgrom, Bulanadi, and others, and Miller's distinctive look is apparent in all.

Klaus just became the collaborator that Frank felt the most comfortable with.

With #191, you're looking at the middle stage of his evolution between his 1978-1981 work, and what he eventually ended up with in Ronin and DK. Plus, Austin had his quite distinctive hand in the issue, too. I agree, it is markedly different from what came before, but by this time, in late 1982, Miller had clearly grown tired of the restrictions of monthly books, and, as most artists do, was experimenting with the look of his work.

Aside: Issue #191 is the definitive issue of the relationship between DD and Bullseye. It's outstanding, and an excellent sendoff to Miller's original run.

Anyone know the split of duties on What-If 28?

Miller pencils or layouts?

Mark

I've been getting bombarded with emails regarding my stash of photocopies of Miller's pencils.

First, let me say that I am not part of any yahoo discussion group. I am only on CAF or these CGC chat boards. If you want to reach me via CAF, please include your email or check on the special box CAF provides to display your email. If you don't, I can't reply back to you or certainly not on a timely basis.

To address certain questions ...

YES, I am confirming that Miller did detailed layouts in pencil directly on 11 x17 bristol for DD 182 and DD 184.

My copies of DD 182 are full sized 11 x 17 (A3). The copies also show hand drawn word balloons and text. The handwriting is consistent with FM's handwriting I have seen elsewhere. The pencils are also consistent with FM's style.

My copies of DD 184 are small 8.5 x 11 letter sized. While it is a 1/3 reduction, it is still obvious that the copy was made of the original full sized bristol. The copy also shows hand drawn word balloons and text along with the pencilled layouts.

While I do not have a copy of art from DD 183, it looks obvious that 'Child's Play' was originally a 1 issue storyline. DD 182 and DD 184 were new stories and art to frame the drug issue and incorporate it into the current timeline following the Elektra saga.

The art from DD 183 (originally 167), stylistically looks like full pencils from FM's earlier period.

Since FM pencilled DD 182 and the issue ontinues the Elektra storyline, I would venture a guess and say FM also pencilled the detailed layouts directly on bristol for DD 179 - DD 181. It just wouldn't make sense for him to layouts on separate sheets but then switch back to do pencils on bristol for DD 182 and DD 184.

More to come.

Cheers!

N.

 

Also, Miller didn't have a definitive look back then.

 

I don't agree with this, but interesting points.

In general inkers had so much more latitude over the final look of the art. tight pencils as we know them today were very rare from what i understand (and have seen)

 

What I mean was that it looks like he deferred a lot of the final look to Klaus (and joe Rubinstein on wolverine) and focused on storytelling & composition more and more. When you look at DD 191 and Ronin Miller's aesthetics in terms of line work and spotting blacks were coming from a very different place than his work with janson.

 

I understand what you're saying, and you are 100% correct that inkers were much more responsible for the finished look back then, but I don't think it's correct to say Miller didn't have his distinctive look. You can see it in Twilight Zone #84 and #85, John Carter #18, PPSM #27, 28, Unknown Soldier #219, DC Special #21, Werd War #64 & #68, and many covers, inked by Springer, McLeod, Milgrom, Bulanadi, and others, and Miller's distinctive look is apparent in all.

 

Klaus just became the collaborator that Frank felt the most comfortable with.

 

With #191, you're looking at the middle stage of his evolution between his 1978-1981 work, and what he eventually ended up with in Ronin and DK. Plus, Austin had his quite distinctive hand in the issue, too. I agree, it is markedly different from what came before, but by this time, in late 1982, Miller had clearly grown tired of the restrictions of monthly books, and, as most artists do, was experimenting with the look of his work.

 

Aside: Issue #191 is the definitive issue of the relationship between DD and Bullseye. It's outstanding, and an excellent sendoff to Miller's original run.

Fair enough. When i look at Miller and Janson's work apart from one another it's Janson's drawing that looks the most descendant from their DD collaboration. Of course correlation does not imply causation so I could be wrong.

DD was a couple of years before I really got into comics and miller. Seeing Sin City first than going backward to find what came before maybe biased my eye in terms of what i consider a signature style.

I've been getting bombarded with emails regarding my stash of photocopies of Miller's pencils.

 

First, let me say that I am not part of any yahoo discussion group. I am only on CAF or these CGC chat boards. If you want to reach me via CAF, please include your email or check on the special box CAF provides to display your email. If you don't, I can't reply back to you or certainly not on a timely basis.

 

To address certain questions ...

 

YES, I am confirming that Miller did detailed layouts in pencil directly on 11 x17 bristol for DD 182 and DD 184.

 

My copies of DD 182 are full sized 11 x 17 (A3). The copies also show hand drawn word balloons and text. The handwriting is consistent with FM's handwriting I have seen elsewhere. The pencils are also consistent with FM's style.

 

My copies of DD 184 are small 8.5 x 11 letter sized. While it is a 1/3 reduction, it is still obvious that the copy was made of the original full sized bristol. The copy also shows hand drawn word balloons and text along with the pencilled layouts.

 

While I do not have a copy of art from DD 183, it looks obvious that 'Child's Play' was originally a 1 issue storyline. DD 182 and DD 184 were new stories and art to frame the drug issue and incorporate it into the current timeline following the Elektra saga.

 

The art from DD 183 (originally 167), stylistically looks like full pencils from FM's earlier period.

 

Since FM pencilled DD 182 and the issue ontinues the Elektra storyline, I would venture a guess and say FM also pencilled the detailed layouts directly on bristol for DD 179 - DD 181. It just wouldn't make sense for him to layouts on separate sheets but then switch back to do pencils on bristol for DD 182 and DD 184.

 

More to come.

Cheers!

N.

 

 

 

I still haven't been convinced that the statement from the DD letters page, (OK'd by Editors and published at the time when all this was occurring) is anything other than accurate.

Klaus's online statement came 30 years later. Sorry Klaus, if you'd done an interview back in the 80s where you'd made similar statements I'd be more inclined to give them credence.

Mitch's statement that he received all the pages from 181 doesn't necessarily mean that Klaus drew all those issues. As pointed out, complete issues were sometimes split up when returning art to penciller/inkers.

I still haven't been convinced that the statement from the DD letters page, (OK'd by Editors and published at the time when all this was occurring) is anything other than accurate.

Klaus's online statement came 30 years later. Sorry Klaus, if you'd done an interview back in the 80s where you'd made similar statements I'd be more inclined to give them credence.

Mitch's statement that he received all the pages from 181 doesn't necessarily mean that Klaus drew all those issues. As pointed out, complete issues were sometimes split up when returning art to penciller/inkers.

My head is starting to spin here. IS it your position that miller put pencil to board on 178 -184 or are there certain issues where you disagree with this statement?

I've been getting bombarded with emails regarding my stash of photocopies of Miller's pencils.

 

First, let me say that I am not part of any yahoo discussion group. I am only on CAF or these CGC chat boards. If you want to reach me via CAF, please include your email or check on the special box CAF provides to display your email. If you don't, I can't reply back to you or certainly not on a timely basis.

 

To address certain questions ...

 

YES, I am confirming that Miller did detailed layouts in pencil directly on 11 x17 bristol for DD 182 and DD 184.

 

My copies of DD 182 are full sized 11 x 17 (A3). The copies also show hand drawn word balloons and text. The handwriting is consistent with FM's handwriting I have seen elsewhere. The pencils are also consistent with FM's style.

 

My copies of DD 184 are small 8.5 x 11 letter sized. While it is a 1/3 reduction, it is still obvious that the copy was made of the original full sized bristol. The copy also shows hand drawn word balloons and text along with the pencilled layouts.

 

While I do not have a copy of art from DD 183, it looks obvious that 'Child's Play' was originally a 1 issue storyline. DD 182 and DD 184 were new stories and art to frame the drug issue and incorporate it into the current timeline following the Elektra saga.

 

The art from DD 183 (originally 167), stylistically looks like full pencils from FM's earlier period.

 

Since FM pencilled DD 182 and the issue ontinues the Elektra storyline, I would venture a guess and say FM also pencilled the detailed layouts directly on bristol for DD 179 - DD 181. It just wouldn't make sense for him to layouts on separate sheets but then switch back to do pencils on bristol for DD 182 and DD 184.

 

More to come.

Cheers!

N.

 

 

 

 

I still haven't been convinced that the statement from the DD letters page, (OK'd by Editors and published at the time when all this was occurring) is anything other than accurate.

 

Klaus's online statement came 30 years later. Sorry Klaus, if you'd done an interview back in the 80s where you'd made similar statements I'd be more inclined to give them credence.

 

Mitch's statement that he received all the pages from 181 doesn't necessarily mean that Klaus drew all those issues. As pointed out, complete issues were sometimes split up when returning art to penciller/inkers.

Has anyone asked Joe Rosen (before he passed on) Denny O'Neil or Jim Shooter? they would have seen the pencils through the entire run.

The letters page says janson began penciling a few issues prior. I think Miller said in interviews it was the last year or so of their run..so that would put Klaus taking on more responsibility for the finished art at around 178 (not counting 191)

I think it's perfectly possible that Frank did full pencils on some issues and layouts on others non sequentially. Frank is mercurial after all. There really shouldn't be this much mystery/debate surrounding who did what when most of the collaborators are still alive.

I do think Janson deserves much more respect as an artist than he seems to be getting though

I agree with you Jeff.

With all due respect to the inkers/finishers, the memories of Klaus and Joe may be a bit fuzzy after all these years.

Anyway, a quick pass at my inventory ....

FM pencils A3 sized copies, complete issue FM directly on bristol:

DD 160 full pencils

DD 164 full pencils

DD 165 full pencils

DD 166 full pencils

DD 167 full pencils

DD 168 full pencils

DD 182 detailed layouts

FM pencils letter sized copies, complete issue FM directly on bristol:

DD 184 detailed layouts

FM rough layouts on letter sized paper. letter sized copies, complete issue:

DD 189

FM pencils A3 sized copies, partial issue FM directly on bristol:

DD 191 - details layouts by FM but not full pencils. Pages 11 - 22.

I also have partial pages from other DD and Wolverine issues but will have to inventory them. Unfortunately, not the key issues that people have questions about.

OT

I also have letter sized copies of Byrne's pencils from FF 244, complete issue.

A3 copies of Paul Smith's pencils X-Men 165 and 166, partial pages.

I agree with you Jeff.

 

With all due respect to the inkers/finishers, the memories of Klaus and Joe may be a bit fuzzy after all these years

 

I don't see why their memories should be any more suspect than Frank's. Miller has given janson a lot of credit for the look of those issues over the years. it seems like you could set the record straight by sharing some of those pages.

There really shouldn't be this much mystery/debate surrounding who did what when most of the collaborators are still alive and copies of the process still exist.

Psst ...

I have been sharing information.

I think my copies are more reliable than the memories of FM, KJ, and JR. Hell, I have trouble remembering what I ate for lunch yesterday so who would not have fuzzy memories from 30 years ago.

I lugged the copies to NYCC several years ago so a few collectors saw them in person. Other collectors were not interested in seeing them.

Several years ago on these chat boards I provided a scan of a DD / Kingpin page which showed FM's detailed layouts. My scanner was working then. The OA was up for auction and my scan helped clarify questions about FM's pencils.

Again, I'm not part of any discussion group outside of CGC. I only chimed in recently when I read this thread and thought I could contribute in a positive manner.

Cheers!

N.

 

My head is starting to spin here. IS it your position that miller put pencil to board on 178 -184 or are there certain issues where you disagree with this statement?

I think he put pencil to board up until 185.

Also of note, the letters page scan I posted was from issue 188. So when they say "the last few issues" this means a few issues back from DD188, not a few issues back from DD185.