Killing Joke spin-off thread: Your Top Ten

2 2

It's all about page 32 for me.

after that,

43 this is definitely my 2nd favorite. Probably the most iconic joker sequence ever for me. in 89 i had a t-shirt using many of the images on this page.

41

42

40

37

36

20

13

3

A butler page!

Is this a thing? . If so, poor Alfred. He suffers silently even in OA collecting.

Great thread!

Hard to choose only 10 but:

1. 32

2. 34

3. 40

4. 42

5. 35

6. 36

7. 37

8. 43

9. 44

10. 45

Honorable mention to 31--I love the look at Batman from inside the hood.

On 9/8/2014 at 2:38 AM, J.Sid said:

Man that book is full of great pages. A few pages are relatively easy. Have fun trying to make cuts after that, though.

 

LET'S HEAR YOUR TOP TEN

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone have a copy of this page collage they can re-post? The board migration zapped it, I think.

21 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

Does anyone have a copy of this page collage they can re-post? The board migration zapped it, I think.

I'll see if I can dig it up tonight

On 9/8/2014 at 7:48 AM, LB JEFFERIES said:

One of the nicest pages in the book to me. I'm not a buyer for any of these - I'm in the minority as someone who didn't spark to the story (either back then or now) - but this is a beautiful set up page

Ha!

Click it a couple of times to get to a bigger file...

On a related note, I was thinking about the Watchmen Page 1 which is a panel page with the iconic "smiley face" button but no main characters.  Sold at Heritage in 2010 for more than many Watchmen pages with more characters and/or more memorable scenes.  The KJ Page 1 sold for more than Page 14 (Joker shoots Barbara Gordon) which is arguably superior being a Joker page, key scene, etc.  

       vs.  

Curious, do auction results suggest a "Page 1" premium for graphic novels relative to content/nostalgia....or do these Page 1s get a title splash bump (as opening scene) despite being a panel page?

Thoughts?

5 minutes ago, GreatEscape said:

On a related note, I was thinking about the Watchmen Page 1 which is a panel page with the iconic "smiley face" button but no main characters.  Sold at Heritage in 2010 for more than many Watchmen pages with more characters and/or more memorable scenes.  The KJ Page 1 sold for more than Page 14 (Joker shoots Barbara Gordon) which is arguably superior being a Joker page, key scene, etc.  

   

Curious, do auction results suggest a "Page 1" premium for graphic novels relative to content/nostalgia....or do these Page 1s get a title splash bump (as opening scene) despite being a panel page.

Thoughts?

  

All those pages would cost much much more today. Suspect that pg 14 would cost more than pg1

1 hour ago, Grendel72 said:

All those pages would cost much much more today. Suspect that pg 14 would cost more than pg1

+1, it feels like yesterday but that page 14 sale was 4 years ago, AKA "eternity and a half" in art pricing-speak. 

3 hours ago, GreatEscape said:

or do these Page 1s get a title splash bump (as opening scene) despite being a panel page?

Thoughts?

  

I would think so. No matter what's on the page it still is THE page that gets the story going. Similarly the end page I think sometimes gets a bump but nearly as much as first. 

1 hour ago, comix4fun said:

+1, it feels like yesterday but that page 14 sale was 4 years ago, AKA "eternity and a half" in art pricing-speak. 

This is a phenomenon worthy of more discussion. I look up comps quite a bit when evaluating possible purchases and I am continually astonished how quickly sales from even just two years ago are dismissed by others. They may not be wrong, but I'm worried / interested in what this means for the overall health of the market. This hobby has the memory of a gnat which is being exacerbated by the explosion of art for sale on the internet (auctions, dealers, reps... It's all at your fingertips like never before.)

We've never really had the OA equivalent of an Overstreet Price Guide -- whose primary function for so many years was to act as a slow-growth regulator and not give too much lip service to outlier sales. @ O. 's thread here is probably the closest equivalent?

So without that "voice of sanity" that the OPG provides to the comic market, you (mainly) have public auction sales as comps. So now the outliers set like fast-drying concrete and it is easy to point at the KJ page 1 sale (which I thought was an outlier due to "Hey, it's page 1!") and say, "well now page 14 should sell for more". I'm not pointing the finger at anybody as I've done this myself.

It's kind of like using the Wizard Price Guide back in the 90s instead of Overstreet... and we all know how that turned out.

Even if we set aside the overall state of the economy for a moment, we might have a near-term bubble pop in OA of our own doing -- not due to the S&P or Bitcoin whatever or even Bronze collector age-off, but just due to the echo chamber. OA is kind of out of its infancy and now in its bone-aching puberty.

I hate the idea of price guides with art. There's no way to build solid metrics. Keeping a database/book of public sales for sold art is really the only metric available. And then we factor in our own personal rationalizations. The way my Dad always put it was "something's only worth the price someone's willing to pay you for it".

My interest in owning a KJ page evaporated with the prices of YEARS ago. As much as I like the book, that money can and does buy a lot of art (not to mention other things). So today's KJ prices are of little more than a passing interest, and raised eyebrows.

FWIW, I looked over the KJ book pages all spread out above, without giving them more than a cursory glance,  and I was surprised to discover liked about half of them more than that #1 page. I bet I could find even more than that, if I took the time to really peruse the book with what I like MORE than p1 in mind. And so...

IMO prices like these for pages like these are a threat, not just for skewing pricing for KJ, but because they skew overall perceptions of what a dollar can buy. I assume everyone does the mental gymnastics I do when I see art like this sell. I think what would I take OVER what is on offer. What would I rather spend the money on? What does this do to our price rationalizations for pieces we're interested in by other artists?

If KJ page 1 sold for this, it makes that cover over there seem awfully good deal by comparison (even if that cover's well overpriced by other metrics). Is this an outlier caused by a p1 designation? What a weird thought. I miss the days when a great page brought the big bucks, and you could at least get a feel for why it sold for the price it realizes. Here any more, I'm having trouble fathoming some of the reasoning behind the big ticket sales.

You can say as always, it's just supply and demand, and the heart wants what it wants at it's core, sure. But I think it's the thought processes of some buys I just can't get a bead on anymore.

Where'd I leave that Bubalicious jpg?

10 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

If ______ sold for this, it makes that cover over there seem awfully good deal by comparison (even if that cover's well overpriced by other metrics).

An interesting idea... that outliers may affect pricing outside of that one silo of title or artist.

At the very least, it crosses the mind doesn't it? Even if it's just in abstract ways.

1 hour ago, BCarter27 said:

 

So without that "voice of sanity" that the OPG provides to the comic market, you (mainly) have public auction sales as comps.

OPG created their prices, ostensibly, from auction sales, dealer reporting, and gathering data from the market. And as information became more readily available and more quickly, it has become obsolete for pricing before the ink is even dry, especially for high grade or key books. 

Even with the OPG, there was/is no sanity in the comic market for the truly high grade, key books and rarities..which would be the closest analog for OA of this caliber. 

I remember having key golden age comics in the 80's and 90s and it was always "What multiple" of OPG was I going to ask. I was asking for and getting 6-7 times OPG, as much as 10 times OPG,  for items of that quality because, even then, OPG could not adequately and relevantly gauge demand, supply, and market for items that existed in very low numbers, some being one of a kind. 

27 minutes ago, BCarter27 said:

An interesting idea... that outliers may affect pricing outside of that one silo of title or artist.

For me, the outlier sale that started it all was the Daredevil #188 cover in 2010 (sold for $101,575 at Heritage). Don't get me wrong - it's a lovely cover, probably one of the best artistically from the run, which shows a maturing Miller hinting at the style that was to come in the coming years.  But, in the grand scheme of things, it's a B cover from the run - there are plenty of Miller DD covers with better content and that are more fondly remembered.  BUT, this was the sale that was a huge wake-up call to the marketplace - "What, a B-LEVEL Miller DD cover just broke 6-figures?  What does that mean for all the stuff (not just Miller DD covers) that is BETTER than this cover (and there is a lot of art that is better than this cover)?"  Prior to this sale, I think one could have reasonably expected even a fair number of A+ covers to be worth, say, "only" in the $150-$200K range. After this sale, all of that stuff got revalued upward in a hurry, and accelerated even more with the DKR #3 splash sale the following year, as well as the emergence of The Vacuum and the whispered data points of his mega-buys around this time as well. 

I think the ASM #328 and Hulk #180 page sales that came later were just so beyond the pale, though, that most people recognized those as true one-offs; I don't think these sales were as influential to the overall OA marketplace as the above examples were.  

5 hours ago, Grendel72 said:

All those pages would cost much much more today. Suspect that pg 14 would cost more than pg1

I feel like the Watchmen page one with the iconic smiley face button would still go for more than almost every other Watchmen Page. 

15 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

But, in the grand scheme of things, it's a B cover from the run - there are plenty of Miller DD covers with better content and that are more fondly remembered.

This is why I always appreciate hearing from the outlier buyers who post here as to WHY they went there with a particular piece. It at least gives the rest of us some context -- all other examples locked up, first book they bought off the stands at the grocery, different aesthetic taste and think the image is the bee's knees, etc. But as you said, the problem starts when the context is forgotten and the revaluation process starts.

44 minutes ago, comix4fun said:

Even with the OPG, there was/is no sanity in the comic market for the truly high grade, key books and rarities..which would be the closest analog for OA of this caliber. 

I see your point. Not to pick on the KJ page 1 (that's just the outlier of the moment), but isn't it more of an "early Action" and not Action 1? (Cue A,B,C,D discussion! Or please don't! ) But I think your metaphor holds up.

38 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

For me, the outlier sale that started it all

I've had a few "come to Jesus" moments since I've been tracking stuff in earnest, but the ones that stick out to me were much more modest (since that is my personal buying level). Those Kubert 80s All Star Squadron covers at Phillip Weiss earlier this year were a big wtf that signaled that 2018 was gonna be "different".