Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87

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The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history. I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point. You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

 

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

 

Umm...that'd be the real world.

 

RMA's dead-on here. CGC has _vastly_ reduced the appeal of pedigrees, as we now have a credible 3rd-party grading system that can tell you whether a normal, non-pedigree book is of a higher grade (and, via GPA, more valuable) than lesser-graded pedigree books.

 

_Many_ collectors want the best-available copies, and would take a non-pedigree 9.8 over a pedigree 9.4 or 9.6.

 

Further, all pedigrees are not created equal, and only a few (probably ~1/3) still carry significant premiums (Church, Allentown, White Mountain among them).

 

I've even heard as much, in person, from CGC reps themselves -- Twin Cities books? Yes - but Savannah, or even Crippen? Not so much.

 

Even Gaines File Copies have normalized somewhat, with higher-graded non-Pedigree copies of some books going for more than the lesser-pedigree counterparts.

There's a premium on the pedigrees, Gatsby. RMA is right, CGC levels the playing field, however, one of the weaker pedigrees will still outperform an identical book in grade and pq. Not by the Chuck Rowzanski 200-300%, but by 10-30%. In the case of the DC 100 Page 5 I wouldn't expect a 9.2 to outperform the Savannah copies. I believe based on recent comps and the long term downtrend the #5 in 9.2 could potentially breach $750 at auction. Even if you use the average pedigree sale price of $1000 there's still a couple of books that fetch more than that whom don't appear on the list. I know some of you guys are romantics, but you cannot hide from the truth.

The truth will always prosper.

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history.

Who disputed this?

Once again, you're making up something he never said.

I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point.

But not in 'all cases?'

Of course not. More famous peds have some juice still, while some others do not.

Which is what he said.

You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

I'm not the one who changed my story.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

That is correct, good sir, but you and I both sell some books as well. Topnotch never said it was in his top 10 list, just that it was worth $900 in 9.2. I bet we could come up with 4-5 books off that list which either one of us could sell for more than that. That's all I'm looking for here. There's no way this is one of the top 10 books of the Bronze Age. Xvideos has done to the DC #100 Page Spectacular #5 what the Disney Channel has done to Four Color #9.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

Are you saying that when I ask Bob from High Grade Comics (highgradecomics.com) or Dale from Dale Roberts Comics (www.dalerobertscomics.com) or Richard from (www.bedrockcity.com) or Greg from (www.gregreececomics.com) or Brad from (www.sharpcomics.com) or Roy from (vintagecomics.com) or Dan from (http://www.flyingdonut.com) that they are LYING to me?

That the information they are giving me is incorrect?

No offense to GPA, as I use it, subscribe to it, support it - but it's just a web site with some limited information on it.

I prefer to use multiple sources for my information as +90% of most sales of comic books are raw.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Are you saying that when I ask Bob from High Grade Comics (highgradecomics.com) or Dale from Dale Roberts Comics (www.dalerobertscomics.com) or Richard from (www.bedrockcity.com) or Greg from (www.gregreececomics.com) or Brad from (www.sharpcomics.com) or Roy from (vintagecomics.com) or Dan from (http://www.flyingdonut.com) that they are LYING to me?

That the information they are giving me is incorrect?

 

No offense to GPA, as I use it, subscribe to it, support it - but it's just a web site with some limited information on it.

 

I prefer to use multiple sources for my information as +90% of most sales of comic books are raw.

Of course I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that we have no reason to believe that the publicly reported sales are not at least reasonably representative of whatever a dealer is doing privately.

That's the point of GPA- so that we don't have to just go by what a dealer says alone.

-J.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

That is correct, good sir, but you and I both sell some books as well. Topnotch never said it was in his top 10 list, just that it was worth $900 in 9.2. I bet we could come up with 4-5 books off that list which either one of us could sell for more than that. That's all I'm looking for here. There's no way this is one of the top 10 books of the Bronze Age. Xvideos has done to the DC #100 Page Spectacular #5 what the Disney Channel has done to Four Color #9.

Well I'm not going to put my own limited sales experience up against the experts, because: not enough information.

The same as GPA: not enough information.

When I want to know, I ask the experts. I just find they have a lot more information on a book like that than I can get elsewhere.

I realize that by looking at the limited data on GPA, it can look as though that book is slipping. But its just a small part of the story...

And romance collectors do tend to prefer there books raw.....

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history.

 

Who disputed this?

Once again, you're making up something he never said.

 

I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point.

 

But not in 'all cases?'

Of course not. More famous peds have some juice still, while some others do not.

Which is what he said.

 

You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

I'm not the one who changed my story.

Changed my story? Let me give you an example: I purchased Boston copies for SA DC war books that rise to a specific grade since that pedigree is known to have great examples. I purchased pedigree books like Green Rivers and Palo Altos because the books are not only beautiful but have great stories behind them. Do I rely on a slab to buy the lesser pedigrees. Is it really fair to say that lesser pedigrees don't have juice? There's a boardie who has some fabulous SA Savannahs in his collection that would sell for a premium. Not at all. I can only speak for myself in this case. So perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

 

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

 

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

 

-J.

 

Are you saying that when I ask Bob from High Grade Comics (highgradecomics.com) or Dale from Dale Roberts Comics (www.dalerobertscomics.com) or Richard from (www.bedrockcity.com) or Greg from (www.gregreececomics.com) or Brad from (www.sharpcomics.com) or Roy from (vintagecomics.com) or Dan from (http://www.flyingdonut.com) that they are LYING to me?

That the information they are giving me is incorrect?

 

No offense to GPA, as I use it, subscribe to it, support it - but it's just a web site with some limited information on it.

 

I prefer to use multiple sources for my information as +90% of most sales of comic books are raw.

 

Of course I'm not saying that. What I am saying is that we have no reason to believe that the publicly reported sales are not at least reasonably representative of whatever a dealer is doing privately.

 

That's the point of GPA- so that we don't have to just go by what a dealer says alone.

 

-J.

GPA reports a SMALL percentage of slabbed sales....a SMALL percentage.

And Slabs are a SMALL percentage of overall comic book sales.... a SMALL percentage.

And you're giving THAT credence over a handful of some of the biggest comic book dealers in the country?

I just find that baffling.

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history.

 

Who disputed this?

Once again, you're making up something he never said.

 

I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point.

 

But not in 'all cases?'

Of course not. More famous peds have some juice still, while some others do not.

Which is what he said.

 

You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

I'm not the one who changed my story.

 

Changed my story? Let me give you an example: I purchased Boston copies for SA DC war books that rise to a specific grade since that pedigree is known to have great examples. I purchased pedigree books like Green Rivers and Palo Altos because the books are not only beautiful but have great stories behind them. Do I rely on a slab to buy the lesser pedigrees. Is it really fair to say that lesser pedigrees don't have juice? There's a boardie who has some fabulous SA Savannahs in his collection that would sell for a premium. Not at all. I can only speak for myself in this case. So perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

At this point I'm speechless.

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history.

 

Who disputed this?

Once again, you're making up something he never said.

 

I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point.

 

But not in 'all cases?'

Of course not. More famous peds have some juice still, while some others do not.

Which is what he said.

 

You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

I'm not the one who changed my story.

 

Changed my story? Let me give you an example: I purchased Boston copies for SA DC war books that rise to a specific grade since that pedigree is known to have great examples. I purchased pedigree books like Green Rivers and Palo Altos because the books are not only beautiful but have great stories behind them. Do I rely on a slab to buy the lesser pedigrees. Is it really fair to say that lesser pedigrees don't have juice? There's a boardie who has some fabulous SA Savannahs in his collection that would sell for a premium. Not at all. I can only speak for myself in this case. So perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

At this point I'm speechless.

"Intellectual dishonesty" or "speechless." I get it.

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history.

 

Who disputed this?

Once again, you're making up something he never said.

 

I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point.

 

But not in 'all cases?'

Of course not. More famous peds have some juice still, while some others do not.

Which is what he said.

 

You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

I'm not the one who changed my story.

 

Changed my story? Let me give you an example: I purchased Boston copies for SA DC war books that rise to a specific grade since that pedigree is known to have great examples. I purchased pedigree books like Green Rivers and Palo Altos because the books are not only beautiful but have great stories behind them. Do I rely on a slab to buy the lesser pedigrees. Is it really fair to say that lesser pedigrees don't have juice? There's a boardie who has some fabulous SA Savannahs in his collection that would sell for a premium. Not at all. I can only speak for myself in this case. So perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

At this point I'm speechless.

 

"Intellectual dishonesty" or "speechless." I get it.

No, I really don't think you do.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

 

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

1. Yes.

2. No.

3. And this one.

My question for you is: when will you be able to disagree about things, and discuss things, without being insulting? If you disagree with me, clearly and reasonably state why, without the snide commentary. Is that really that hard?

The purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point is not only the grade it's noted for but also the history of the pedigree- and remains its history.

 

Who disputed this?

Once again, you're making up something he never said.

 

I purchase pedigree books in many cases on account of the history of that pedigree- not for the slab as a selling point.

 

But not in 'all cases?'

Of course not. More famous peds have some juice still, while some others do not.

Which is what he said.

 

You're pretty quick to make allegations of intellectual dishonesty. Perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

I'm not the one who changed my story.

 

Changed my story? Let me give you an example: I purchased Boston copies for SA DC war books that rise to a specific grade since that pedigree is known to have great examples. I purchased pedigree books like Green Rivers and Palo Altos because the books are not only beautiful but have great stories behind them. Do I rely on a slab to buy the lesser pedigrees. Is it really fair to say that lesser pedigrees don't have juice? There's a boardie who has some fabulous SA Savannahs in his collection that would sell for a premium. Not at all. I can only speak for myself in this case. So perhaps you should reconsider your conclusion?

 

At this point I'm speechless.

 

"Intellectual dishonesty" or "speechless." I get it.

 

No, I really don't think you do.

Ok, I don't know. Perhaps you can give me some examples of lesser pedigrees? The ones you refer to as having less "juice?" Please, educate me (I'm not trying to be sarcastic-so please don't read it that way).

 

Do you think a book where most readers/collectors were precluded from ever having the opportunity to purchasing it on the newsstand (1977 was pre-direct market) should be categorized as a mainstream book in terms of value?

 

1977 was not pre-Direct market. In fact, by 1977, the Direct market had been in place for about 2-2.5 years.

 

Really? Then what was the first Direct Market Comic Book?

Your question isn't clear. There isn't any such thing as the "first Direct market comic book", because Marvel & DC didn't just pick a single book.

There is, however, a first Direct market ONLY book, which was Dazzler #1.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

This, I think, is indisputable even for hardcore Starwars or Cerebus fans. Hulk181 is the first appearance of the most popular character to come out of the Bronze age. I don't anyone is disputing that. As such Hulk181 is obviously the king of the BA.

 

Whether there exists an issue of a more of less obscure title or variant which can be priced higher because the small interest is outdone by an even smaller print run... that is possible. But that certainly does not make that issue king of anything.

+1

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

This, I think, is indisputable even for hardcore Starwars or Cerebus fans. Hulk181 is the first appearance of the most popular character to come out of the Bronze age. I don't anyone is disputing that. As such Hulk181 is obviously the king of the BA.

 

Whether there exists an issue of a more of less obscure title or variant which can be priced higher because the small interest is outdone by an even smaller print run... that is possible. But that certainly does not make that issue king of anything.

Star Wars 1 variant is the king of the BA. Hands down.

And Hulk #181 is not the most important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Sorry Wolvie fans, but that honor still goes to GSXM #1.

 

Hulk #181 is the most important single character intro...but without GSXM #1, Wolvie is a one-off.

 

This is an interesting point and one that deserves greater analysis, The question as to whether Wolvie made the X-Men more popular or vice versa is not a simple one to answer. However, you raise a question that goes to the heart of the how the greatest BA creation differs from those of the Golden and Silver Ages. Interestingly, while Wolverine is one of the 4 greatest comic book characters ever created, he is unlike Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man since they developed in a more "individualized" context. Each developed in their own books over a period of time while Wolverine "grew up" within the X-Men team. Not until Frank Miller's limited series in 1982 did Wolverine get his own book. Concurrently, the X-Men grew into the most popular superhero team of the latter part of the 20th Century. The Marvel Age of Mutants was really an era where the X-Men and Wolverine led comics into the next century. Only Punisher came close to rivaling them during the late 80s.

 

The BA not only gave rise to the 4th great comic book superhero but one unlike the prior 3, an antihero who simultaneously relied on a team of heroes where they all developed together.

 

Wolverine is special in the history of comics.

You are talking like Wolverine as the 4th greatest comic book superhero is fact. The Hulk is infinitely more important, for example. Iron Man, Thor, Flash, Green Lantern. There are several superhero characters that are more recognizable around the world and sell more merchandise, comics, etc.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

Agreed about Star Wars 1 variant. It is the indisputable top valued comic of the BA.

Star Wars 1 had over 1 million copies printed (roughly 4 times Amazing Spider-Man) across the various prints. (So, not quite 10 for everyone in NA ) It is a common book, for sure, but like NM 98, ASM 300, etc. for a book with such a large print run, Star Wars 1 has demand. It has been slowly rising in price for the past couple of years now. You know a book is in demand when it routinely sells for guide or more.

Somewhere along the line, this discussion went from the top valued comic of the BA to the top most important superhero character of the BA. It's like trying to kick a field goal into a moving goal post.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

 

Agreed about Star Wars 1 variant. It is the indisputable top valued comic of the BA.

 

Star Wars 1 had over 1 million copies printed (roughly 4 times Amazing Spider-Man) across the various prints. (So, not quite 10 for everyone in NA ) It is a common book, for sure, but like NM 98, ASM 300, etc. for a book with such a large print run, Star Wars 1 has demand. It has been slowly rising in price for the past couple of years now. You know a book is in demand when it routinely sells for guide or more.

Couple of points...

First, New Mutants #98 had a print run of about 250-300k, while Spidey #300 had a print run of about 450-500k (with surviving rates of about 175-200k and 250-300k, respectively.)

Second, Star Wars #1 is only worth money as a first print. There are oddball uber high grade reprints that are worth something, but it is the first prints that hold the value, and there weren't that many first prints printed...maybe 250,000, and while they were saved in far greater numbers than, say, Amazing Spiderman #168, they were also read to death, and are not especially common in high grade (first prints, that is.)

Somewhere along the line, this discussion went from the top valued comic of the BA to the top most important superhero character of the BA. It's like trying to kick a field goal into a moving goal post.

Yeah, that's what happened, despite concerted efforts to keep focused.