Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87

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And Hulk #181 is not the most important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Sorry Wolvie fans, but that honor still goes to GSXM #1.

 

Hulk #181 is the most important single character intro...but without GSXM #1, Wolvie is a one-off.

This is an interesting point and one that deserves greater analysis, The question as to whether Wolvie made the X-Men more popular or vice versa is not a simple one to answer. However, you raise a question that goes to the heart of the how the greatest BA creation differs from those of the Golden and Silver Ages. Interestingly, while Wolverine is one of the 4 greatest comic book characters ever created, he is unlike Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man since they developed in a more "individualized" context. Each developed in their own books over a period of time while Wolverine "grew up" within the X-Men team. Not until Frank Miller's limited series in 1982 did Wolverine get his own book. Concurrently, the X-Men grew into the most popular superhero team of the latter part of the 20th Century. The Marvel Age of Mutants was really an era where the X-Men and Wolverine led comics into the next century. Only Punisher came close to rivaling them during the late 80s.

The BA not only gave rise to the 4th great comic book superhero but one unlike the prior 3, an antihero who simultaneously relied on a team of heroes where they all developed together.

Wolverine is special in the history of comics.

As for the $1100 sale I simply don't see it. GPA shows the sale of the Savannah pedigree, but the only prior sale was from back in 2006.

 

Your inexperience with using GPA doesn't validate your point.

 

Hint: click the grade.

 

And for raw 9.2 sales, don't you think that dealers would press and sub copies that high in an effort to attain highest graded? The gap between 9.2 & 9.4 is substantial.

 

No. There are many, MANY dealers who do not slab books at ALL. And there are many dealers who "play the grades", by keeping books raw that could go one way or another, hoping that the customer thinks they'll go the other.

 

Again...CGC has slabbed over 2 million comic books.

 

That number represents less than half the print run (and, likely extant copies) of Adventures of Superman #500 alone.

 

 

I didn't think to click on the pedigree 9.2 so I guess that means my argument is invalid.

No, it means you weren't arguing from the data.

It turned twice in 2011 for an average price of $1000. Keep in mind this is a pedigree copy of a scarce, slabbed book that is trending down from its prices roughly 8-10 years ago.

You really need to stop with the "trending" business for books that are represented by less than 5 sales on GPA in 10 years.

ALL of you.

Less than five sales in 10 years does NOT a trend make.

I mentioned 4 books kept off the list that I believe would command a higher auction price than a universal 100 Page #5. I've heard talk about how this is the most key of all the 100 Pagers. Why? Does the protagonist get one base further than Archie ever did with Veronica?

I guess I was hoping to be enlightened as to why this book is in the top 10 versus put downs and the ol' "most comics sell as raws" argument. Yawn.

Sorry to disappoint you, but that's the way it is.

And could you please point out the "put down" that I made....?

Not sure if that's a real game changer. The one fact you seem to avoid, is why the IM 55 is left off when it trades 25% higher than pedigree copies of the 100 Page #5? You are up to bat, strawman.

If you're going to be confrontational and dismissive, there's really no point in continuing the discussion with you.

I didn't "avoid' IM #55; I simply don't care enough to check it out. That's not avoidance, that's apathy, and topic weariness. I don't want to endlessly debate why you think the OPG Top 10 list is wrong, and THIS book should be in, and THAT book should be out, and THIS book over here should be higher than that one. It's mind numbing.

Just because someone doesn't address every single little point you make doesn't mean they are "avoiding" those points. It's not an IRS audit, here, it's a discussion. Lighten up, Francis.

If you are going to accuse me of making straw-man arguments, 1. you'd better know exactly what they are, and 2. you'd best be able to point them out if I make them (and you will be hard pressed to find a single one in my 38,000+ posts here. Straw-man arguments are for the intellectually weak and dishonest. They are utter wastes of space, useful only for advancing propaganda, which is why they are used so often on message boards.)

What is with you people, and your utter inability to discuss things without becoming emotionally charged up about it...?

And Hulk #181 is not the most important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Sorry Wolvie fans, but that honor still goes to GSXM #1.

 

Hulk #181 is the most important single character intro...but without GSXM #1, Wolvie is a one-off.

 

This is an interesting point and one that deserves greater analysis, The question as to whether Wolvie made the X-Men more popular or vice versa is not a simple one to answer. However, you raise a question that goes to the heart of the how the greatest BA creation differs from those of the Golden and Silver Ages. Interestingly, while Wolverine is one of the 4 greatest comic book characters ever created, he is unlike Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man since they developed in a more "individualized" context. Each developed in their own books over a period of time while Wolverine "grew up" within the X-Men team. Not until Frank Miller's limited series in 1982 did Wolverine get his own book. Concurrently, the X-Men grew into the most popular superhero team of the latter part of the 20th Century. The Marvel Age of Mutants was really an era where the X-Men and Wolverine led comics into the next century. Only Punisher came close to rivaling them during the late 80s.

 

The BA not only gave rise to the 4th great comic book superhero but one unlike the prior 3, an antihero who simultaneously relied on a team of heroes where they all developed together.

 

Wolverine is special in the history of comics.

Wolvie did NOT "make the X-Men popular."

As was discussed in CG a while back, Wolverine was just one of the gang, for a good 8-10 years after the new X-Men came about.

It is no secret that Claremont and Cockrum were about to ditch Wolverine altogether, and it was Byrne...3 years into the run...who saved him.

From 1975-1978, no one cared about the X-Men.

From 1978-1982-ish, it was THE X-MEN. Wolverine was just part of the whole. The X-Men as a UNIT was the dominating force in comics from about 1981 to about 1985. But it was the X-MEN, not "Wolverine & The X-Men."

It didn't become WOLVERINE (occasionally featuring the other X-Men) until a little after issue #200, in 1985-1986.

And Hulk #181 is not the most important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Sorry Wolvie fans, but that honor still goes to GSXM #1.

 

Hulk #181 is the most important single character intro...but without GSXM #1, Wolvie is a one-off.

 

This is an interesting point and one that deserves greater analysis, The question as to whether Wolvie made the X-Men more popular or vice versa is not a simple one to answer. However, you raise a question that goes to the heart of the how the greatest BA creation differs from those of the Golden and Silver Ages. Interestingly, while Wolverine is one of the 4 greatest comic book characters ever created, he is unlike Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man since they developed in a more "individualized" context. Each developed in their own books over a period of time while Wolverine "grew up" within the X-Men team. Not until Frank Miller's limited series in 1982 did Wolverine get his own book. Concurrently, the X-Men grew into the most popular superhero team of the latter part of the 20th Century. The Marvel Age of Mutants was really an era where the X-Men and Wolverine led comics into the next century. Only Punisher came close to rivaling them during the late 80s.

 

The BA not only gave rise to the 4th great comic book superhero but one unlike the prior 3, an antihero who simultaneously relied on a team of heroes where they all developed together.

 

Wolverine is special in the history of comics.

 

Wolvie did NOT "make the X-Men popular."

 

As was discussed in CG a while back, Wolverine was just one of the gang, for a good 8-10 years after the new X-Men came about.

 

It is no secret that Claremont and Cockrum were about to ditch Wolverine altogether, and it was Byrne...3 years into the run...who saved him.

 

From 1975-1978, no one cared about the X-Men.

 

From 1978-1982-ish, it was THE X-MEN. Wolverine was just part of the whole. The X-Men as a UNIT was the dominating force in comics from about 1981 to about 1985. But it was the X-MEN, not "Wolverine & The X-Men."

 

It didn't become WOLVERINE (occasionally featuring the other X-Men) until a little after issue #200, in 1985-1986.

Good examples of why it's not an easy question to answer.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

Do you think a book where most readers/collectors were precluded from ever having the opportunity to purchasing it on the newsstand (1977 was pre-direct market) should be categorized as a mainstream book in terms of value?

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

 

Do you think a book where most readers/collectors were precluded from ever having the opportunity to purchasing it on the newsstand (1977 was pre-direct market) should be categorized as a mainstream book in terms of value?

I have no problem with separate lists(not that we need any lists at all, but then think of the many entertaining discussions we would miss out on), using different criteria.

Wolverine is an extremely important character, and I am certain that IH181 will eventually be the most valuable non-variant Bronze Age comic book.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

Sure, if you are talking about the most important character - it's Wolverine. No other Bronze Age creation comes close.

 

If we are excluding variants and discussing the most important book, then I agree with RMA. I'd go with GSXM #1.

 

I thought we were discussing value, and if so, I was simply stating that Star Wars #1 deserves to be where it is.

 

What I like about Star Wars is that demand and desirability play such a large part in it's value. If not for the fact that they originally printed ten copies for every man, woman and child in North America, the regular edition would be worth more than it is as well. At five years old I had multiples of this issue. It was everywhere.

 

I wouldn't make the mistake of underestimating how many people want this book in their collections. It's a different beast than the other variants, and it is a beast.

 

 

 

 

Do you think a book where most readers/collectors were precluded from ever having the opportunity to purchasing it on the newsstand (1977 was pre-direct market) should be categorized as a mainstream book in terms of value?

 

I have no problem with separate lists(not that we need any lists at all, but then think of the many entertaining discussions we would miss out on), using different criteria.

 

Wolverine is an extremely important character, and I am certain that IH181 will eventually be the most valuable non-variant Bronze Age comic book.

Agreed. (thumbs u

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

Take care.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

See explanation in a post above.

And Hulk #181 is not the most important book of the Bronze Age.

 

Sorry Wolvie fans, but that honor still goes to GSXM #1.

 

Hulk #181 is the most important single character intro...but without GSXM #1, Wolvie is a one-off.

 

This is an interesting point and one that deserves greater analysis, The question as to whether Wolvie made the X-Men more popular or vice versa is not a simple one to answer. However, you raise a question that goes to the heart of the how the greatest BA creation differs from those of the Golden and Silver Ages. Interestingly, while Wolverine is one of the 4 greatest comic book characters ever created, he is unlike Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man since they developed in a more "individualized" context. Each developed in their own books over a period of time while Wolverine "grew up" within the X-Men team. Not until Frank Miller's limited series in 1982 did Wolverine get his own book. Concurrently, the X-Men grew into the most popular superhero team of the latter part of the 20th Century. The Marvel Age of Mutants was really an era where the X-Men and Wolverine led comics into the next century. Only Punisher came close to rivaling them during the late 80s.

 

The BA not only gave rise to the 4th great comic book superhero but one unlike the prior 3, an antihero who simultaneously relied on a team of heroes where they all developed together.

 

Wolverine is special in the history of comics.

 

Wolvie did NOT "make the X-Men popular."

 

As was discussed in CG a while back, Wolverine was just one of the gang, for a good 8-10 years after the new X-Men came about.

 

It is no secret that Claremont and Cockrum were about to ditch Wolverine altogether, and it was Byrne...3 years into the run...who saved him.

 

From 1975-1978, no one cared about the X-Men.

 

From 1978-1982-ish, it was THE X-MEN. Wolverine was just part of the whole. The X-Men as a UNIT was the dominating force in comics from about 1981 to about 1985. But it was the X-MEN, not "Wolverine & The X-Men."

 

It didn't become WOLVERINE (occasionally featuring the other X-Men) until a little after issue #200, in 1985-1986.

 

Good examples of why it's not an easy question to answer.

It is an easy question to answer: without the X-Men, Wolverine would be a one-off 70's character, the kind that Marvel pumped out by the bucketful.

The X-Men made Wolverine, not the other way around.

 

Do you think a book where most readers/collectors were precluded from ever having the opportunity to purchasing it on the newsstand (1977 was pre-direct market) should be categorized as a mainstream book in terms of value?

1977 was not pre-Direct market. In fact, by 1977, the Direct market had been in place for about 2-2.5 years.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

It clearly belongs on the list.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

 

Do you think a book where most readers/collectors were precluded from ever having the opportunity to purchasing it on the newsstand (1977 was pre-direct market) should be categorized as a mainstream book in terms of value?

 

1977 was not pre-Direct market. In fact, by 1977, the Direct market had been in place for about 2-2.5 years.

Really? Then what was the first Direct Market Comic Book?

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.

 

Take it up with Overstreet. No need for flattery. You cannot make an argument based on 4 sales in 10 years, no matter how you wish to try.

 

Take care.

 

2 sales in 3 years. Pedigree copies. I can make a pretty good argument.

 

 

If you don't want to hear it then you should not have said it belongs on the list. This book is the Four Color #9 of the Bronze Age

 

 

There are nationwide traveling comic book dealers, right here on this board, that have sold more copies of that book raw than GPA will ever have to show.

Why don't you ask them what they've seen?

If I want to know what the REAL value of a book is, I would rather ask someone who actually sells the books for a living and has seen multiple copies of it over the years, than rely solely on something like GPA, that takes a SMALL percentage of sales (specific auctions), from a SMALL percentage of type books (3rd party graded).

Okay I think we get it now...The "good" sales are the ones that are only happening privately.

All of the other ones that are offered publicly where the overall market is allowed to set the price, which then becomes a matter of public record don't really count. (thumbs u

-J.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

 

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

Umm...that'd be the real world.

RMA's dead-on here. CGC has _vastly_ reduced the appeal of pedigrees, as we now have a credible 3rd-party grading system that can tell you whether a normal, non-pedigree book is of a higher grade (and, via GPA, more valuable) than lesser-graded pedigree books.

_Many_ collectors want the best-available copies, and would take a non-pedigree 9.8 over a pedigree 9.4 or 9.6.

Further, all pedigrees are not created equal, and only a few (probably ~1/3) still carry significant premiums (Church, Allentown, White Mountain among them).

I've even heard as much, in person, from CGC reps themselves -- Twin Cities books? Yes - but Savannah, or even Crippen? Not so much.

Even Gaines File Copies have normalized somewhat, with higher-graded non-Pedigree copies of some books going for more than the lesser-pedigree counterparts.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

 

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

 

See explanation in a post above.

 

So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree? So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant? What world do you live in?

How did you get that from "Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds."

It's like you completely disregarded what he actually wrote and replaced it with the way you chose to see it.

Why would you do that?

Do you not see the intellectual dishonesty in that?

He said: "CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab."

And you changed that to "So the slab replaced the function of the pedigree?"

Do you not see the difference?

You then said: "So the history of the pedigree becomes irrelevant?"

From what was said, where on earth did you come up with that?