Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87

3 3

Oh boy. I can't wait to hear this. Please elaborate, good sir. Last GPA sale in 9.2 was a pedigree copy below $900. As you even mentioned yourself there are a couple of books that trade higher in lower grade that are off the list. If you feel up to it I'd love to hear your logic.

Now you've done it,you're poking the bear.

 

 

 

Oakman-Who has a 9.4 and 9.2 IH 181 still thinks Cerebus is a cooler book.

 

Iron Man 55 & Marvel Preview 7 both more valuable than the 100 Page 5. No emotion at play here, but with the data we have available both these books are more expensive in 9.2. In the case of IM 55 it isn't really all that close. ASM 121 is also gaining rapid momentum as is the Marvel Preview 4.

That last pedigree sale of the 100 Pager is the proverbial nail in the coffin. I don't care about the 9.4's because they are the highest graded copies. To quote the bear himself that isn't comparing apples to apples.

An 8.5 copy of this book recently tanked at $335, but I'm not concerned about that either. I know this book is a dog from a speculative prospective. There is a direct correlation between hits on xvideos and the price decline of 100 Page #5. No reasonable person can argue otherwise!

 

MP #7 isn't involved in this discussion, as it had much less worth in 2013.

We're not talking about current data. We're talking about a list that covers 2013.

Why did you ignore the $1135 sale from earlier in 2011, but included the "last sale" at $876? Do we just pick and choose from information available to suit our arguments....?

And...AGAIN...as has been said over and over and over again, slabbed comics sales are only one avenue that Overstreet uses to gather data and compile information.

Let's not make the same poorly reasoned arguments as the others, huh?

People...all of you reading this....if you don't understand this yet, you really need to understand it now, because it's paramount:

Slabbed comic books only make a *tiny* percentage of the amount of comic books sold annually. And of that tiny percentage, only a *fraction* of those sales are reported at GPA

This is the CGC board, so obviously views here tend to be a bit myopic, but that is a truth. And yes, we look at GPA a lot, because that's the only really concrete data we have.

But it's not the big picture, by a very, very long shot.

Overstreet covers THE ENTIRE market (and many have claimed that the OPG only covers RAW books, but I think it's safe to say that ship sailed a few years ago.)

There are literally millions and millions of sales of books, slabbed or not, that are not recorded at GPA.

You have to understand and accept that, and stop going to GPA as if it is the end-all, be-all of pricing data. It's not.

Yes, for frequently traded books like Hulk #181, Spidey #129, Spidey #300, New Mutants #98 it presents about as clear a picture as there can be.

But for books with 5 sales in 10 years? No, it's not adequate, and it doesn't begin to paint the whole picture.

Oh boy. I can't wait to hear this. Please elaborate, good sir. Last GPA sale in 9.2 was a pedigree copy below $900. As you even mentioned yourself there are a couple of books that trade higher in lower grade that are off the list. If you feel up to it I'd love to hear your logic.

Now you've done it,you're poking the bear.

 

 

 

Oakman-Who has a 9.4 and 9.2 IH 181 still thinks Cerebus is a cooler book.

 

Iron Man 55 & Marvel Preview 7 both more valuable than the 100 Page 5. No emotion at play here, but with the data we have available both these books are more expensive in 9.2. In the case of IM 55 it isn't really all that close. ASM 121 is also gaining rapid momentum as is the Marvel Preview 4.

That last pedigree sale of the 100 Pager is the proverbial nail in the coffin. I don't care about the 9.4's because they are the highest graded copies. To quote the bear himself that isn't comparing apples to apples.

An 8.5 copy of this book recently tanked at $335, but I'm not concerned about that either. I know this book is a dog from a speculative prospective. There is a direct correlation between hits on xvideos and the price decline of 100 Page #5. No reasonable person can argue otherwise!

 

MP #7 isn't involved in this discussion, as it had much less worth in 2013.

 

We're not talking about current data. We're talking about a list that covers 2013.

 

Why did you ignore the $1135 sale from earlier in 2011, but included the "last sale" at $876? Do we just pick and choose from information available to suit our arguments....?

 

 

And...AGAIN...as has been said over and over and over again, slabbed comics sales are only one avenue that Overstreet uses to gather data and compile information.

 

Let's not make the same poorly reasoned arguments as the others, huh?

You have a point with the MP 7 and the list being from 2013. I guess this means you are conceding the MP 7 is clearly the more valuable book right here right now?

As for the $1100 sale I simply don't see it. GPA shows the sale of the Savannah pedigree, but the only prior sale was from back in 2006. Even if you averaged the two sales the end result would still fall short of IM 55.

And for raw 9.2 sales, don't you think that dealers would press and sub copies that high in an effort to attain highest graded? The gap between 9.2 & 9.4 is substantial.

Batman 227 belongs in the conversation as well.

As for the $1100 sale I simply don't see it. GPA shows the sale of the Savannah pedigree, but the only prior sale was from back in 2006.

Your inexperience with using GPA doesn't validate your point.

Hint: click the grade.

And for raw 9.2 sales, don't you think that dealers would press and sub copies that high in an effort to attain highest graded? The gap between 9.2 & 9.4 is substantial.

No. There are many, MANY dealers who do not slab books at ALL. And there are many dealers who "play the grades", by keeping books raw that could go one way or another, hoping that the customer thinks they'll go the other.

Again...CGC has slabbed over 2 million comic books.

That number represents less than half the print run (and, likely extant copies) of Adventures of Superman #500 alone.

Oh boy. I can't wait to hear this. Please elaborate, good sir. Last GPA sale in 9.2 was a pedigree copy below $900. As you even mentioned yourself there are a couple of books that trade higher in lower grade that are off the list. If you feel up to it I'd love to hear your logic.

Now you've done it,you're poking the bear.

 

 

 

Oakman-Who has a 9.4 and 9.2 IH 181 still thinks Cerebus is a cooler book.

 

Iron Man 55 & Marvel Preview 7 both more valuable than the 100 Page 5. No emotion at play here, but with the data we have available both these books are more expensive in 9.2. In the case of IM 55 it isn't really all that close. ASM 121 is also gaining rapid momentum as is the Marvel Preview 4.

That last pedigree sale of the 100 Pager is the proverbial nail in the coffin. I don't care about the 9.4's because they are the highest graded copies. To quote the bear himself that isn't comparing apples to apples.

An 8.5 copy of this book recently tanked at $335, but I'm not concerned about that either. I know this book is a dog from a speculative prospective. There is a direct correlation between hits on xvideos and the price decline of 100 Page #5. No reasonable person can argue otherwise!

 

MP #7 isn't involved in this discussion, as it had much less worth in 2013.

 

We're not talking about current data. We're talking about a list that covers 2013.

 

Why did you ignore the $1135 sale from earlier in 2011, but included the "last sale" at $876? Do we just pick and choose from information available to suit our arguments....?

 

 

And...AGAIN...as has been said over and over and over again, slabbed comics sales are only one avenue that Overstreet uses to gather data and compile information.

 

Let's not make the same poorly reasoned arguments as the others, huh?

Have to agree with RMA on this- DC 100 Page SS 5 belongs on the list. Let's also add that the 100 pagers are a big part of the DC BA and SS 5 is the key book followed by SS 4 and 6 respectively.

Maybe we could all agree that Cerebus 1 is the cooler comic of the two?

 

 

I think, more than anything, that's precisely the thing which people cannot agree upon.

 

Which is a ridiculous argument, because it's personal preference, and there is no arguing against personal preference.

 

For the record, since it's been brought up by others, I like BOTH characters equally well...but while I have owned 3-4 Hulk #181s, they always end up for sale.

 

My Cerebus #1s? I've owned them for closing on 10 years.

 

I know which book is harder to get.

 

That's the real problem in this entire thread: people wanting to convince everyone else that Wolverine is a cooler character, which no one has ever disputed. But these people are personally offended that Cerebus #1 is more valuable than Hulk #181 in 9.2 and above, which is irrational.

Indeed, but 99% of arguments on the internet seem to involve hurt feelings over a difference of opinion.

Collect what you enjoy reading, searching for, whatever. As a collector, who really cares what OPG says? As an investor, irrational attachment to favorite characters is a great way to lose money.

Honestly, I've always been a Spider-Man guy, but if someone else prefers Batman, I respect their right to be a clueless insufficiently_thoughtful_person.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

-J.

As for the $1100 sale I simply don't see it. GPA shows the sale of the Savannah pedigree, but the only prior sale was from back in 2006.

 

Your inexperience with using GPA doesn't validate your point.

 

Hint: click the grade.

 

And for raw 9.2 sales, don't you think that dealers would press and sub copies that high in an effort to attain highest graded? The gap between 9.2 & 9.4 is substantial.

 

No. There are many, MANY dealers who do not slab books at ALL. And there are many dealers who "play the grades", by keeping books raw that could go one way or another, hoping that the customer thinks they'll go the other.

 

Again...CGC has slabbed over 2 million comic books.

 

That number represents less than half the print run (and, likely extant copies) of Adventures of Superman #500 alone.

 

I didn't think to click on the pedigree 9.2 so I guess that means my argument is invalid. It turned twice in 2011 for an average price of $1000. Keep in mind this is a pedigree copy of a scarce, slabbed book that is trending down from its prices roughly 8-10 years ago.

I mentioned 4 books kept off the list that I believe would command a higher auction price than a universal 100 Page #5. I've heard talk about how this is the most key of all the 100 Pagers. Why? Does the protagonist get one base further than Archie ever did with Veronica?

I guess I was hoping to be enlightened as to why this book is in the top 10 versus put downs and the ol' "most comics sell as raws" argument. Yawn. Not sure if that's a real game changer. The one fact you seem to avoid, is why the IM 55 is left off when it trades 25% higher than pedigree copies of the 100 Page #5? You are up to bat, strawman.

Also, I believe that Star Wars #1 is the deserving king of the BA, not IH181.

 

It's much harder to find, and also extremely popular. Checks both boxes unlike the IH181 or Cerebus #1.

 

I highly doubt that anything will ever catch it value-wise, because unless Machine Man reaches Iron Man levels of success sometime in the next 20 years, nothing else combines relative scarcity and popularity the way Star Wars does.

 

 

 

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

This, I think, is indisputable even for hardcore Starwars or Cerebus fans. Hulk181 is the first appearance of the most popular character to come out of the Bronze age. I don't anyone is disputing that. As such Hulk181 is obviously the king of the BA.

Whether there exists an issue of a more of less obscure title or variant which can be priced higher because the small interest is outdone by an even smaller print run... that is possible. But that certainly does not make that issue king of anything.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

Off topic. If anyone is really into pedigrees there's a gorgeous picture of the Allentown Cap #1 on the Tec 27 9.2 thread in CG. You read that right gang. In case you didn't hear a Tec 27 just graded 9.2. Nobody is coughing up the provenance but there's speculation it's the missing 8.0 that was upgraded. It is not the Allentown Tec 27.

And Hulk #181 is not the most important book of the Bronze Age.

Sorry Wolvie fans, but that honor still goes to GSXM #1.

Hulk #181 is the most important single character intro...but without GSXM #1, Wolvie is a one-off.

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

A "price variant" of a regular issue cannot be the "king" of the BA. Maybe the star wars 1 issue ( a comic book adapted from a movie) can be considered the "King of price variants", sure. But not all of the BA. That title is deservedly and indisputably hulk 181- the book that trades on a daily basis, and is one of the primary engines (if not THE primary engine) of the BA market. Just because something is more "expensive" the few times it sells in a year does not automatically make it the "king". It just makes it more expensive. Whether or not there is any rational basis why it actually is, is a whole other discussion.

 

-J.

 

This, I think, is indisputable even for hardcore Starwars or Cerebus fans.

What does Cerebus have to do with this...?

You're not still trying to argue from the perspective that the only reason anyone challenges Hulk #181's value is because they are a "hardcore Cerebus fan", are you...?

I don't even really like Cerebus that much but Cerebus 1 tickles my happy zones more than Hulk 181. Why? Who knows. There's very little that is rational about collecting.

I don't even really like Cerebus that much but Cerebus 1 tickles my happy zones more than Hulk 181. Why? Who knows. There's very little that is rational about collecting.

It tickles my fancy because I don't have one yet,and want it baaaaad

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

How has CGC taken the place of pedigrees? And what are the pedigrees that fall outside your "famous" criteria?

Just so everyone is on the same page "pedigree" doesn't mean anything nearly that it did 15 or even 10 years ago. The point of pedigrees as selling points was that people were reasonably assured...not guaranteed, of course, but reasonably assured...that the book they were getting was actually high grade, mostly unfiddled with, and usually fairly fresh.

 

CGC took the place of the position of pedigrees, and as a result, the purpose and function of a pedigree as a selling point has been replaced by the slab.

 

So...premiums for pedigrees, unless we're talking about Church, Allentown, Pacific Coast, etc, don't really exist any more.

 

There is a slight premium for the run of the mill pedigrees. There's a couple auctions Ive been watching where they seem to command 10-25%. The FP 1 Twin Cities 9.8 commanded a premium to the 9.8 that sold on connect. $1675 vs $1400 roughly. The Dr Strange 172 BG pedigree in the comiclink summer feature has already set the all time high for the book with 7 days left in the auction.

 

They do add some value. How much is up for debate. In these two cases the pedigree copy is also the highest graded, which probably makes it the most desirable.

 

Not all of them add value. It exists for some, but for all intents and purposes, it's been replaced by the slab, outside of the "famous" Peds.

You are an intelligent man. If the pedigree commands a premium in these two examples, it certainly doesn't detract from the marketability of a scarce, yet heralded, Bronze Age book that was auctioned as a second highest graded copy. That $879 sale of the 100 Page #5 is an embarrassment. You are about to witness several books surpass the Danielle Steele novel, as IM 55 very clearly already has. Once again, there is no defense here. There is enough data to show this is an easy easy easy easy call yet you continue to defend the #5. Let it go, man. If you want romance study French, drink wine, watch Eat Pray Love and read poetry. A better case could be made for the ASM 129, which surprisingly is showing some recent strength due to the first appearance of the Jackal.