Cerebus 1 a more valuable key than Hulk 181? Really Overstreet? Poll on Page 87

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New theory:

At this point, I think Jaydog is trolling to such an extent that he actually has a high grade copy or two of Cerebus 1 stashed away and that his seemingly adversarial position in this thread was actually a ruse to shine a spotlight on and renew awareness of Cerebus, driving demand ahead of an impending sale.

Well played, sir, well played.

Not at all. Perhaps it's just one's approach ?

 

What Chuck said.

 

To which I would add: "perhaps it's perception based on personal feeling, by the exposure of irrational premises", illustrated below:

 

"Cerebus #1 is worth more than Hulk #181 in certain grades."

 

"WHAT??!!!?!!?!?!?! Hulk #181 is the BESTEST BOOK OF ALL TIME, how DARE anything be worth more than it is???"

 

"The facts clearly show that it is."

 

"You're just an A-HOLE who is JEALOUS, so I'm going to purposely read into your posts a condescending, braggadocious attitude, because I don't like you challenging my feelings!"

 

"Feel free."

 

I dunno, that's what I see. I could be wrong.

 

Confidence is often perceived as arrogance by the unconfident.

 

To which I would add, "your opinion is noted ad infinitum."

I suspect that means nail met hammer right on its head.

New theory:

 

At this point, I think Jaydog is trolling to such an extent that he actually has a high grade copy or two of Cerebus 1 stashed away and that his seemingly adversarial position in this thread was actually a ruse to shine a spotlight on and renew awareness of Cerebus, driving demand ahead of an impending sale.

 

Well played, sir, well played.

Hey Gatsby - Anything on the Central Valley's?

Thx,

John

Not at all. Perhaps it's just one's approach ?

 

What Chuck said.

 

To which I would add: "perhaps it's perception based on personal feeling, by the exposure of irrational premises", illustrated below:

 

"Cerebus #1 is worth more than Hulk #181 in certain grades."

 

"WHAT??!!!?!!?!?!?! Hulk #181 is the BESTEST BOOK OF ALL TIME, how DARE anything be worth more than it is???"

 

"The facts clearly show that it is."

 

"You're just an A-HOLE who is JEALOUS, so I'm going to purposely read into your posts a condescending, braggadocious attitude, because I don't like you challenging my feelings!"

 

"Feel free."

 

I dunno, that's what I see. I could be wrong.

 

Confidence is often perceived as arrogance by the unconfident.

 

To which I would add, "your opinion is noted ad infinitum."

 

I suspect that means nail met hammer right on its head.

 

Your head?

New theory:

 

At this point, I think Jaydog is trolling to such an extent that he actually has a high grade copy or two of Cerebus 1 stashed away and that his seemingly adversarial position in this thread was actually a ruse to shine a spotlight on and renew awareness of Cerebus, driving demand ahead of an impending sale.

 

Well played, sir, well played.

He's not doing a very good job unless he owns a 9.0 or better. That 7.5 on comiclink is stinkin it up. $550 is the best offer in 3 months, and that was even a reluctant, bottom-feeder offer from yours truly. It looks like that copy is even signed by Sims.

Would this be a good time to point out that the latest CGC 9.4 sale of Hulk 181 (i.e., from three days ago) was a whopping $2,800?

As in, less than the 90-day average, 12-month average, and 2013 average?

Now, I'll admit it's an outlier, but even if so, it reinforces the extent to which the much-trumpeted CGC 9.2 $3,200 sale is just as much of an outlier (but on the high side).

Either way, it shows both the pricing volatility of such a common book and the folly of trying to build a valuation argument based on one extreme sale.

Again, within a three-week period we have verified GPA reported sales of Hulk 181 9.2 for $3,200 and a 9.4 for $2,800.

Quick, let's all arbitrarily pick one or the other to argue our opinion!

Timing and venue mean so much when it comes to selling comics. There's volatility on both books. It's the classic scarcity vs popularity argument. It's like debating whether youd rather take home a model or pull off a threeway with two Asians. There are no losers.

Well if those two are some of the guys who post on these boards then I think there is a losing scenario.

Timing and venue mean so much when it comes to selling comics. There's volatility on both books. It's the classic scarcity vs popularity argument. It's like debating whether youd rather take home a model or pull off a threeway with two Asians. There are no losers.

 

Good point.

One of the questions I raised in my original post concerned how the BA market for the top keys differed from that of the SA. The scarcity of a book is not as significant as the popularity in Silver's market at the top. AF 15 v. SC 4 is the best example to support this. AF 15's rise in demand is due mainly to the popularity of Spidey as an American icon. AF 15 didn't place above SC 4 until Spidey became even more popular. Will the same hold true for Wolverine? Is Hulk 181 the next AF 15 in terms of a growing popularity that will exponentially increase the demand for this iconic key? Sure it's easier to get a 181 now and there was a time when the same was true for AF 15 years ago. Have we even began to see what heights Hulk 181 will reach as a mega key. After all, it's the younger generations that are first seeing Wolverine on the big screen unlike many of us who encountered him in the comics long before Hugh Jackman played him.

Would this be a good time to point out that the latest CGC 9.4 sale of Hulk 181 (i.e., from three days ago) was a whopping $2,800?

 

As in, less than the 90-day average, 12-month average, and 2013 average?

 

Now, I'll admit it's an outlier, but even if so, it reinforces the extent to which the much-trumpeted CGC 9.2 $3,200 sale is just as much of an outlier (but on the high side).

 

Either way, it shows both the pricing volatility of such a common book and the folly of trying to build a valuation argument based on one extreme sale.

 

Again, within a three-week period we have verified GPA reported sales of Hulk 181 9.2 for $3,200 and a 9.4 for $2,800.

 

Quick, let's all arbitrarily pick one or the other to argue our opinion!

No. That really is just a terrible comparison.

Low feedback seller and a high jacked account. In other words, scam listing. GPA has been alerted.

You get those a lot with hot books.

The comiclink listing for the cerebus 1 meanwhile really does just represent an apathetic buying public.

Thanks for playing. (thumbs u

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Incredible-Hulk-181-CGC-Graded-9-4-NO-RESERVE-3000-OR-BEST-OFFER-/111446217882?pt=US_Comic_Books&hash=item19f2b6549a

-J.

Timing and venue mean so much when it comes to selling comics. There's volatility on both books. It's the classic scarcity vs popularity argument. It's like debating whether youd rather take home a model or pull off a threeway with two Asians. There are no losers.

 

 

Good point.

 

One of the questions I raised in my original post concerned how the BA market for the top keys differed from that of the SA. The scarcity of a book is not as significant as the popularity in Silver's market at the top. AF 15 v. SC 4 is the best example to support this. AF 15's rise in demand is due mainly to the popularity of Spidey as an American icon. AF 15 didn't place above SC 4 until Spidey became even more popular. Will the same hold true for Wolverine? Is Hulk 181 the next AF 15 in terms of a growing popularity that will exponentially increase the demand for this iconic key? Sure it's easier to get a 181 now and there was a time when the same was true for AF 15 years ago. Have we even began to see what heights Hulk 181 will reach as a mega key. After all, it's the younger generations that are first seeing Wolverine on the big screen unlike many of us who encountered him in the comics long before Hugh Jackman played him.

Wolverine the comic character and Wolverine the movie character is not exactly that hot of a character these days. The comics are not top sellers and the movies are not top box office draws. There is a reason Marvel is building an event around his "death".

Like many characters, Wolverines best days have probably come and past. Sure, he'll always be a staple as long as Marvel publishes comic, but its going to take something extraordinary for that character to capture the popularity he had in the late 80s and 90s.

Also, I'd like to note, based on the top 10 books of the Bronze Age, even if IH 181 is ranked higher than Cerebus 1, it still won't be the top book of the Bronze Age. While I disagree with those arguing that IH 181 should be higher, I also disagree with those who think the agenda has to do with IH 181 having to be on top. If that were the case, 3 other books would have to come off that list.

Timing and venue mean so much when it comes to selling comics. There's volatility on both books. It's the classic scarcity vs popularity argument. It's like debating whether youd rather take home a model or pull off a threeway with two Asians. There are no losers.

 

 

Good point.

 

One of the questions I raised in my original post concerned how the BA market for the top keys differed from that of the SA. The scarcity of a book is not as significant as the popularity in Silver's market at the top. AF 15 v. SC 4 is the best example to support this. AF 15's rise in demand is due mainly to the popularity of Spidey as an American icon. AF 15 didn't place above SC 4 until Spidey became even more popular. Will the same hold true for Wolverine? Is Hulk 181 the next AF 15 in terms of a growing popularity that will exponentially increase the demand for this iconic key? Sure it's easier to get a 181 now and there was a time when the same was true for AF 15 years ago. Have we even began to see what heights Hulk 181 will reach as a mega key. After all, it's the younger generations that are first seeing Wolverine on the big screen unlike many of us who encountered him in the comics long before Hugh Jackman played him.

 

Wolverine the comic character and Wolverine the movie character is not exactly that hot of a character these days. The comics are not top sellers and the movies are not top box office draws. There is a reason Marvel is building an event around his "death".

 

Like many characters, Wolverines best days have probably come and past. Sure, he'll always be a staple as long as Marvel publishes comic, but its going to take something extraordinary for that character to capture the popularity he had in the late 80s and 90s.

 

Also, I'd like to note, based on the top 10 books of the Bronze Age, even if IH 181 is ranked higher than Cerebus 1, it still won't be the top book of the Bronze Age. While I disagree with those arguing that IH 181 should be higher, I also disagree with those who think the agenda has to do with IH 181 having to be on top. If that were the case, 3 other books would have to come off that list.

Marvel "killed" Spiderman, spun off a second title for awhile, then re-booted ASM. All of this surrounding the release of a middling to poorly received sequel movie of a (re-booted) franchise, that under performed at the North American box office.

And none of that has stopped AF 15 from setting GPA highs on a weekly, if not daily basis.

Similarly, Hulk 181 is having its best year price performance wise in quite a while. While it may not be the "most expensive" comic in the BA on overstreet's list in a "9.2", it is (and probably always will be) generally accepted as the king of it.

Not sure I follow your line of reason here.

-J.

Timing and venue mean so much when it comes to selling comics. There's volatility on both books. It's the classic scarcity vs popularity argument. It's like debating whether youd rather take home a model or pull off a threeway with two Asians. There are no losers.

 

 

Good point.

 

One of the questions I raised in my original post concerned how the BA market for the top keys differed from that of the SA. The scarcity of a book is not as significant as the popularity in Silver's market at the top. AF 15 v. SC 4 is the best example to support this. AF 15's rise in demand is due mainly to the popularity of Spidey as an American icon. AF 15 didn't place above SC 4 until Spidey became even more popular. Will the same hold true for Wolverine? Is Hulk 181 the next AF 15 in terms of a growing popularity that will exponentially increase the demand for this iconic key? Sure it's easier to get a 181 now and there was a time when the same was true for AF 15 years ago. Have we even began to see what heights Hulk 181 will reach as a mega key. After all, it's the younger generations that are first seeing Wolverine on the big screen unlike many of us who encountered him in the comics long before Hugh Jackman played him.

 

Wolverine the comic character and Wolverine the movie character is not exactly that hot of a character these days. The comics are not top sellers and the movies are not top box office draws. There is a reason Marvel is building an event around his "death".

 

Like many characters, Wolverines best days have probably come and past. Sure, he'll always be a staple as long as Marvel publishes comic, but its going to take something extraordinary for that character to capture the popularity he had in the late 80s and 90s.

 

Also, I'd like to note, based on the top 10 books of the Bronze Age, even if IH 181 is ranked higher than Cerebus 1, it still won't be the top book of the Bronze Age. While I disagree with those arguing that IH 181 should be higher, I also disagree with those who think the agenda has to do with IH 181 having to be on top. If that were the case, 3 other books would have to come off that list.

 

Marvel "killed" Spiderman, spun off a second title for awhile, then re-booted ASM. All of this surrounding the release of a middling to poorly received sequel movie of a (re-booted) franchise, that under performed at the North American box office.

 

And none of that has stopped AF 15 from setting GPA highs on a weekly, if not daily basis.

 

Similarly, Hulk 181 is having its best year price performance wise in quite a while. While it may not be the "most expensive" comic in the BA on overstreet's list in a "9.2", it is (and probably always will be) generally accepted as the king of it.

 

Not sure I follow your line of reason here.

 

-J.

I was responding to the post I quoted. That person was saying AF 15 didn't take off until Spider-Man was more popular. I don't know how much more popular Wolverine can get.

If you tell me that IH 181 will continue to rise in value due to momentum and the current collector base, I would absolutely agree. If you are telling me IH 181 is going to keep growing because of a new generation of collectors (the post I was responding to), I disagree. Cerebus 1 also goes up because of momentum (one of the reasons I believe there are so many disbelievers in its price on this very thread), not because of some influx of new collectors tracking down the comic. There are many comics which feature characters that have no discernible reason to keep rising except for momentum.

In my 40 years of comic collecting, once a comic is hot and achieves some level of success on the back issue market for a few years, I very rarely see that comic go down in price, even when there is absolutely no heat behind it anymore. There are lots of reasons for this 1) dealers refusing to drop the price and 2) collectors memory of the demand for the comic being 2 examples. Eventually, those comics prices stagnant while their peer prices catch up (Uncanny X-Men is a title that comes to mind here.)

I was also pointing out there are 3 other comics ahead of Cerebus 1 on the Top 10 Bronze list. While I can see Green Lantern 76 stagnant in price, I don't imagine we'll see the same for the other 2 comics. Hence why I don't think IH 181 will ever be the top Bronze comic on a Top 10 list of 9.2 comics unless the rules for how that list are compiled is changed. Star Wars 1 ($0.35 variant) will probably always remain the king of that era.

Okay I follow you. You're basically theorizing that once a particular book has the wind in its back the "law of motion" kicks in and the rest is history....

I have no doubt that this can certainly happen and has been (is) happening with plenty of books, I'm not so sure I would put hulk 181 under that umbrella. Wolverine is quite simply the number 4 character in all of comics-dom and certainly the hugest single character to come out of the bronze age. This book is considered a grail by many Gen Y-ers that I know, and

I know numerous millenials who are talking about his upcoming "death" not to mention how great DOFP was.

Wolverine is pretty entrenched at this point in time. All things being equal I would not even have "price variants" and small indy releases on the same list. Regardless of how much they may or may not be "worth", the play in a different playground, they are not mainstream releases. And GL 76 has been dormant for years (thanks Ryan Reynolds). Hulk 181 is by far the most far reachingly influential and important book of the BA, a true blue chip book and a pillar of the hobby.

And yes I'm also a fan.

-J.

Hulk 181 is by far the most far reachingly influential and important book of the BA

Hulk 181 has the biggest single character introduction, but overall pales in comparison to Wolverine's second full appearance.

Influential? Action Comics 1 is influential. Cerebus 1 is influential. Detective Comics 27 is important. Incredible Hulk 181 is important.

Okay I follow you. You're basically theorizing that once a particular book has the wind in its back the "law of motion" kicks in and the rest is history....

 

I have no doubt that this can certainly happen and has been (is) happening with plenty of books, I'm not so sure I would put hulk 181 under that umbrella. Wolverine is quite simply the number 4 character in all of comics-dom and certainly the hugest single character to come out of the bronze age. This book is considered a grail by many Gen Y-ers that I know, and

I know numerous millenials who are talking about his upcoming "death" not to mention how great DOFP was.

 

Wolverine is pretty entrenched at this point in time. All things being equal I would not even have "price variants" and small indy releases on the same list. Regardless of how much they may or may not be "worth", the play in a different playground, they are not mainstream releases. And GL 76 has been dormant for years (thanks Ryan Reynolds). Hulk 181 is by far the most far reachingly influential and important book of the BA, a true blue chip book and a pillar of the hobby.

 

And yes I'm also a fan.

 

-J.

Okay, I guess I disagree with Wolverine being the 4th biggest superhero character in comicdom. But that is okay, because these are just opinions.

Wolverine is definitely a top 10 superhero character in my mind, but I would go with:

Batman

Superman

Spiderman

Hulk

Captain America

Wolverine

Iron Man

Flash

Green Lantern

Thor

If you told me Wolverine was the top superhero character introduced in the Bronze Age, I would absolute agree. But any such list is very subjective to personal taste, just as the above list is subjective. I imagine a Punisher fan might list the Punisher higher. Or a Swamp Thing fan would list that character higher. I look at the list this way, if I was able to afford the first appearance of any superhero character, which character would I want first, second, etc.? That is how I ranked the above list. It's not based on the value of the comic, but the order of importance I would place on acquiring that character's first appearance.

Personally, I have no desire to acquire any book on that list at current market values (IH 181 is the only 1st appearance I have on that list, but it is a very common book. I wouldn't buy a copy today at today's prices.) First of all, I don't have the financial means, and second, I do not value the superheroes as highly as I value other genres.

In my area of interest, this would be my top 5 character list:

Flash Gordon

Buck Rogers

Adam Strange

Magnus Robot Fighter

Kamandi

A top 5 property list would include:

Star Wars

Space Family Robinson

Planet of the Apes

Battlestar Galactica

Star Trek

It's a good thing Overstreet doesn't list these things according to personal preference. I would imagine many characters people would agree on, but other characters would be a harder sell.

Okay I follow you. You're basically theorizing that once a particular book has the wind in its back the "law of motion" kicks in and the rest is history....

 

I have no doubt that this can certainly happen and has been (is) happening with plenty of books, I'm not so sure I would put hulk 181 under that umbrella. Wolverine is quite simply the number 4 character in all of comics-dom and certainly the hugest single character to come out of the bronze age. This book is considered a grail by many Gen Y-ers that I know, and

I know numerous millenials who are talking about his upcoming "death" not to mention how great DOFP was.

 

Wolverine is pretty entrenched at this point in time. All things being equal I would not even have "price variants" and small indy releases on the same list. Regardless of how much they may or may not be "worth", the play in a different playground, they are not mainstream releases. And GL 76 has been dormant for years (thanks Ryan Reynolds). Hulk 181 is by far the most far reachingly influential and important book of the BA, a true blue chip book and a pillar of the hobby.

 

And yes I'm also a fan.

 

-J.

 

Okay, I guess I disagree with Wolverine being the 4th biggest superhero character in comicdom. But that is okay, because these are just opinions.

 

Wolverine is definitely a top 10 superhero character in my mind, but I would go with:

 

Batman

Superman

Spiderman

Hulk

Captain America

Wolverine

Iron Man

Flash

Green Lantern

Thor

 

If you told me Wolverine was the top superhero character introduced in the Bronze Age, I would absolute agree. But any such list is very subjective to personal taste, just as the above list is subjective. I imagine a Punisher fan might list the Punisher higher. Or a Swamp Thing fan would list that character higher. I look at the list this way, if I was able to afford the first appearance of any superhero character, which character would I want first, second, etc.? That is how I ranked the above list. It's not based on the value of the comic, but the order of importance I would place on acquiring that character's first appearance.

 

Personally, I have no desire to acquire any book on that list at current market values (IH 181 is the only 1st appearance I have on that list, but it is a very common book. I wouldn't buy a copy today at today's prices.) First of all, I don't have the financial means, and second, I do not value the superheroes as highly as I value other genres.

 

In my area of interest, this would be my top 5 character list:

 

Flash Gordon

Buck Rogers

Adam Strange

Magnus Robot Fighter

Kamandi

 

A top 5 property list would include:

 

Star Wars

Space Family Robinson

Planet of the Apes

Battlestar Galactica

Star Trek

 

It's a good thing Overstreet doesn't list these things according to personal preference. I would imagine many characters people would agree on, but other characters would be a harder sell.

I can't imagine Thor being at the bottom of any list.

Here's my list

Superman-C'mon it's F-ing Superman

Batman

Spider-man

Hulk

Captain America

Thor

Green Lantern

Iron Man

Flash

Wolverine

That's a pretty good list. Batman and Supes kinda 1A & 1B though. Or maybe I'm just afraid of commitment.