Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221

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The last 15 slabs purchased from comiclink, comicconnect, pedigree and especially heritage have been an exercise in frustration. Color breaking spine ticks, ink rub, chipped corners, and/or ncb bends do not belong in those grades. And I don't think those are from scs. And from my own submissions of 75 moderns I've received a few 9.8's for something that should have been a 9.4 at best and a bunch that didn't pass that looked better than the ones that did.

 

What do you base your opinions on?

 

I often get into in person discussions about a slabbed book and hear comments like "That's not a 9.4" or "That's not a 9.8" and invariable most people expect a 9.4 or a 9.8 book to be absolutely flawless but they are not and never have been from 1999 up until now.

 

I will agree that there are loose and tight examples of books that fall to either extreme (and you're going to have that with 3 MIL graded books) but for the most part, there is a reasoning or a rationale as to why a book is in a 9.4 or a 9.8 holder and it's extremely rare in my experience to see a 9.4 in a 9.8 holder.

 

9.6 'tweener' possibly, but not a dead 9.4.

 

Do you have any scans of books that you feel are over graded 9.8's?

 

If I asked you to describe the differences between a 9.4 and 9.8 would you? I assume you would.

If I asked CGC the same question would I get an answer? I assume I wouldn't.

 

Someone buys a book that was graded, EXPECTING it to grade higher...expecting the SAME company to grade it higher. He said he thought it would be a 6.5.

There is a risk factor there, Dan has said that...sometimes he "wins" sometimes he loses...but isn't his whole business model based on the fact that he does NOT expect CGC to be consistent?

If he kept the book slabbed as a 6.0, he wouldn't have lost a thing.

The book could have come back a 5.5, would he have been damaged then?

When something is slightly inconsistent, it doesn't always mean it's going to be a higher grade.

Risk/Reward...it's a gambling term.

People who actually buy things based on the expected inconsistencies in grading are gambling.

I'm sure it's a small percentage, but there are people who scour slabs for the gamble. You don't always win when you gamble...this time it was just a little odder than the normal risks because of the color label change.

There are always going to be inconsistencies where humans are involved.

More risk for the potential reward.

[/color]

 

Sharon speaks the truth here. The resub game exists soley because of CGC's propensity for inconsistency. The game isn't necessarily rigged when it goes against you. It's just gambling, period.

If you want a more regulated playing field try stocks, more specifically stock options. You don't need a big bankroll to play options. I'd rather make my money there and spend it on comics.

 

I don't entirely agree with this assessment. Yes, CPR exists because of CGC's inconsistency, but also because CGC grading is not as strict as it was in the past.

 

Actually, CPR exists because CGC does not consider it to be restoration. This whole CPR issue would be a near non-factor had CGC done things differently from the beginning

 

Sadly that boat has long left the dock never to return. These days, I would just be happy if they graded the book in front of them and didn't try to assume whether defects were production related or not, you know, basically grade according to how people use to and in many cases still grade. (thumbs u

If you don't like or agree with the grade of a book with/because of production defects, you then don't buy said book. For most folks, this is not a hard thing to do.

Here is an unfortunate reality that comes with slabbing:

 

The item slabbed carries a premium solely because of that number in the upper left hand corner, especially at extremely high grades.

 

If you remove a 9.6 Amazing Fantasy #15 from its slab, it is no longer a $1 point whatever million book.

 

It doesn't matter if the book is sold 5 seconds after being removed from its slab. Once it is detached from that label, it loses a tremendous amount of its "value."

 

It can BE a $1 point whatever million book, IF it gets put back in a slab that says "9.6." And if, by chance, it ends up in slab that says "9.4", .the "book" has just lost 60% of its "value."

 

Even if it is exactly identical to when it resided in a 9.6 slab.

 

This is the madness of the ultra high grade market, but as long as rich people keep chasing labels, it will not change. There could be, and very likely are, HIGHER quality books in lower number slabs that are worth much less, for the sole and only reason that the label has a lower number on it.

 

 

 

pretty much sums it up.

Not really that insightful. All the labeling in the world won't make a subpar book "truly" a 9.8, nor will it keep what is a truly 9.8 book in a mistakenly-labeled 9.4 holder for very long, if the retail cost is a significant spread. Grading is done by humans, not computer, and is always going to be inherently flawed and subject to debate. But quality books that can stand up to careful scrutiny will find their value regardless of what the slab label says.

Here is an unfortunate reality that comes with slabbing:

 

The item slabbed carries a premium solely because of that number in the upper left hand corner, especially at extremely high grades.

 

If you remove a 9.6 Amazing Fantasy #15 from its slab, it is no longer a $1 point whatever million book.

 

It doesn't matter if the book is sold 5 seconds after being removed from its slab. Once it is detached from that label, it loses a tremendous amount of its "value."

 

It can BE a $1 point whatever million book, IF it gets put back in a slab that says "9.6." And if, by chance, it ends up in slab that says "9.4", .the "book" has just lost 60% of its "value."

 

Even if it is exactly identical to when it resided in a 9.6 slab.

 

This is the madness of the ultra high grade market, but as long as rich people keep chasing labels, it will not change. There could be, and very likely are, HIGHER quality books in lower number slabs that are worth much less, for the sole and only reason that the label has a lower number on it.

 

 

 

pretty much sums it up.

 

Not really that insightful. All the labeling in the world won't make a subpar book "truly" a 9.8, nor will it keep what is a truly 9.8 book in a mistakenly-labeled 9.4 holder for very long, if the retail cost is a significant spread. Grading is done by humans, not computer, and is always going to be inherently flawed and subject to debate. But quality books that can stand up to careful scrutiny will find their value regardless of what the slab label says.

Can you explain the bolded part in more detai?

If I understand correctly, you are saying that a book will find it's value even if it's in a lower graded slab? I find that impossible to believe unless I am missing something.

If that 9.6 AF 15 was in a slab with a 9.4 label it would NEVER achieve the price of a 9.6 regardless of how strong a book it is. The label will dictate the value over the actual condition of the book...every day of the week.

The last 15 slabs purchased from comiclink, comicconnect, pedigree and especially heritage have been an exercise in frustration. Color breaking spine ticks, ink rub, chipped corners, and/or ncb bends do not belong in those grades. And I don't think those are from scs. And from my own submissions of 75 moderns I've received a few 9.8's for something that should have been a 9.4 at best and a bunch that didn't pass that looked better than the ones that did.

 

What do you base your opinions on?

 

I often get into in person discussions about a slabbed book and hear comments like "That's not a 9.4" or "That's not a 9.8" and invariable most people expect a 9.4 or a 9.8 book to be absolutely flawless but they are not and never have been from 1999 up until now.

 

I will agree that there are loose and tight examples of books that fall to either extreme (and you're going to have that with 3 MIL graded books) but for the most part, there is a reasoning or a rationale as to why a book is in a 9.4 or a 9.8 holder and it's extremely rare in my experience to see a 9.4 in a 9.8 holder.

 

9.6 'tweener' possibly, but not a dead 9.4.

 

Do you have any scans of books that you feel are over graded 9.8's?

 

 

If I asked you to describe the differences between a 9.4 and 9.8 would you? I assume you would.

 

If I asked CGC the same question would I get an answer? I assume I wouldn't.

I would describe what I think CGC allows in 9.4 and 9.8 holders. How does that relate to loudstone's opinion that CGC 9.8's look like 9.4 books in 9.8 holders?

 

If you don't like or agree with the grade of a book with/because of production defects, you then don't buy said book. For most folks, this is not a hard thing to do.

But without seeing the book in hand, it is indeed a hard thing to do. The poster made the comment that he did not like what he was winning in online auctions and would only buy books that he can see in hand. This makes sense to me. ?

Here is an unfortunate reality that comes with slabbing:

 

The item slabbed carries a premium solely because of that number in the upper left hand corner, especially at extremely high grades.

 

If you remove a 9.6 Amazing Fantasy #15 from its slab, it is no longer a $1 point whatever million book.

 

It doesn't matter if the book is sold 5 seconds after being removed from its slab. Once it is detached from that label, it loses a tremendous amount of its "value."

 

It can BE a $1 point whatever million book, IF it gets put back in a slab that says "9.6." And if, by chance, it ends up in slab that says "9.4", .the "book" has just lost 60% of its "value."

 

Even if it is exactly identical to when it resided in a 9.6 slab.

 

This is the madness of the ultra high grade market, but as long as rich people keep chasing labels, it will not change. There could be, and very likely are, HIGHER quality books in lower number slabs that are worth much less, for the sole and only reason that the label has a lower number on it.

 

 

 

pretty much sums it up.

 

Not really that insightful. All the labeling in the world won't make a subpar book "truly" a 9.8, nor will it keep what is a truly 9.8 book in a mistakenly-labeled 9.4 holder for very long, if the retail cost is a significant spread. Grading is done by humans, not computer, and is always going to be inherently flawed and subject to debate. But quality books that can stand up to careful scrutiny will find their value regardless of what the slab label says.

 

Can you explain the bolded part in more detai?

 

If I understand correctly, you are saying that a book will find it's value even if it's in a lower graded slab? I find that impossible to believe unless I am missing something.

 

If that 9.6 AF 15 was in a slab with a 9.4 label it would NEVER achieve the price of a 9.6 regardless of how strong a book it is. The label will dictate the value over the actual condition of the book...every day of the week.

 

I hear you there, but if the AF15 in a 9.4 label really and truly should be in a 9.6, if that's its actual condition (to most reasonable and well-heeled comics buyers) it will "find its price", because someone would believe in the book enough to try and buy it, crack it out and resubmit. Do enough times until it's maxed out, and is in the 9.6 holder, which it may deserve, or some may call it a "weak 9.6", or whatever. Happens all the time with coins; "if the grade don't fit, you must resubmit." Eventually, some coins do reach their "full potential" slab grade, and then some, such that knowledgeable collectors would say it's "buried" in that slab, with what may appear to be a gift grade. Which you'd think would be great for a potential seller of that piece, but not always, it would probably reach a price somewhat weak for the grade given, if it's thought to be a weak example.

Example from comics, that some seem to have a bug up their posterior about: a 9.4 in a CGC slab, but let's say it has an ugly miswrap. I don't really care if people think "OMG" -- a 9.4 should never have a miswrap like that" -- doesn't mean anything unless you're in the habit of buying a comic sight unseen. If you do, and you get a miswrap 9.4 that you just hate, investigate your right of return. But other than that, I don't see any problem with a miswrap 9.4. It wouldn't be a book I'd want, nor to others who hate miswraps, so in all probability it will get what would appear to be a weak price for a 9.4, eventually.

Of course, coins and comics aren't exactly apples to apples, there might be a hidden factor within the book's guts that explain a 9.4 grade -- but with a book like an AF15 at that grade level, it would bear some scrutiny, probably you'd pay for grader's notes, etc. And if it's a realllly strong 9.4, with superb everything, maybe it'll get a "9.5" price. Conversely, if it's a realllly weak 9.6, with something about it that bugs most buyers at that grade level, maybe it too, will get a "9.5" price.

 

If you don't like or agree with the grade of a book with/because of production defects, you then don't buy said book. For most folks, this is not a hard thing to do.

 

But without seeing the book in hand, it is indeed a hard thing to do. The poster made the comment that he did not like what he was winning in online auctions and would only buy books that he can see in hand. This makes sense to me. ?

There's definitely things you can only tell about a book by seeing it in-hand (cover gloss, any NCB dents or creases, sometimes light water rippling) but I am thinking about flaws that some deem unacceptable or acceptable at a given grade level, that are easy enough to detect from a scan, like an ugly cut/miswrap, a noticeable dust shadow, that sort of thing.

 

If you don't like or agree with the grade of a book with/because of production defects, you then don't buy said book. For most folks, this is not a hard thing to do.

 

But without seeing the book in hand, it is indeed a hard thing to do. The poster made the comment that he did not like what he was winning in online auctions and would only buy books that he can see in hand. This makes sense to me. ?

 

There's definitely things you can only tell about a book by seeing it in-hand (cover gloss, any NCB dents or creases, sometimes light water rippling) but I am thinking about flaws that some deem unacceptable or acceptable at a given grade level, that are easy enough to detect from a scan, like an ugly cut/miswrap, a noticeable dust shadow, that sort of thing.

I'd add that although you can make mistakes on Clink and Pedigree because the scans are small and back covers are not offered, I'm curious as to why Comic Connect and Heritage were referenced because they offer ginormous scans and any defects that keep a book from 9.8 would be readily apparent in the scans (front and rear are offered). Additionally, loss of cover gloss, NCB dents and creases and water rippling would not be allowed in 9.8 grades (or at not to any degree that you could see with the naked eye through a CGC holder).

 

If you don't like or agree with the grade of a book with/because of production defects, you then don't buy said book. For most folks, this is not a hard thing to do.

 

But without seeing the book in hand, it is indeed a hard thing to do. The poster made the comment that he did not like what he was winning in online auctions and would only buy books that he can see in hand. This makes sense to me. ?

 

There's definitely things you can only tell about a book by seeing it in-hand (cover gloss, any NCB dents or creases, sometimes light water rippling) but I am thinking about flaws that some deem unacceptable or acceptable at a given grade level, that are easy enough to detect from a scan, like an ugly cut/miswrap, a noticeable dust shadow, that sort of thing.

 

I'd add that although you can make mistakes on Clink and Pedigree because the scans are small and back covers are not offered, I'm curious as to why Comic Connect and Heritage were referenced because they offer ginormous scans and any defects that keep a book from 9.8 would be readily apparent in the scans (front and rear are offered). Additionally, loss of cover gloss, NCB dents and creases and water rippling would not be allowed in 9.8 grades (or at not to any degree that you could see with the naked eye through a CGC holder).

 

 

 

I agree with you Roy.

Internal defects can be grade killers for otherwise fantastic looking books as they appear in the slab. You can find in grader notes concerning the internal pages of an 8.5 that looks like a 9.4 such things as "1 inch tear on two pages" or 4" crease on one page, dog ear on four pages or moisture stain on two pages" So once the book is slabbed you obviously can't see these things, but they will affect the overall grade nevertheless. Personally this is a pet peeve of mine and I don't like the fact I have to pay more to get the grader notes (if available) for hidden defects like this on books that look much nicer than their grade. Oh well, just my rant.

Internal defects can be grade killers for otherwise fantastic looking books as they appear in the slab. You can find in grader notes concerning the internal pages of an 8.5 that looks like a 9.4 such things as "1 inch tear on two pages" or 4" crease on one page, dog ear on four pages or moisture stain on two pages" So once the book is slabbed you obviously can't see these things, but they will affect the overall grade nevertheless. Personally this is a pet peeve of mine and I don't like the fact I have to pay more to get the grader notes (if available) for hidden defects like this on books that look much nicer than their grade. Oh well, just my rant.

+1

CGC would help itself immensely if it gave grader notes free. It would be better serving the customer, and help CGC by heading off accusations of undergrading in situations as described above. It would cost them nothing to do this. Come on CGC listen to your customers. Grader notes should come with every slab.

CGC would help itself immensely if it gave grader notes free. It would be better serving the customer, and help CGC by heading off accusations of undergrading in situations as described above. It would cost them nothing to do this. Come on CGC listen to your customers. Grader notes should come with every slab.

I'm curious as to just how much they make off those notes. I've bought them a few times, once when I was perplexed why a book I submitted got such a low grade and another time when I was debating among three different copies of Strange Tales 110. But ya, otherwise just seems a waste of money, and makes sense that when I pay to have something graded that I could actually see the graders' notes explaining said grade.

It just shows how little they care about their customers that they won't change this policy.

I can't think of any other business that withholds information from a paying customer. Your doctor doesn't give you an Rx and refuse to explain why. Your mechanic doesn't keep things secret. As a greed ploy it's not working because people rarely pay for them. It just comes of as arrogant.

CGC would help itself immensely if it gave grader notes free. It would be better serving the customer, and help CGC by heading off accusations of undergrading in situations as described above. It would cost them nothing to do this. Come on CGC listen to your customers. Grader notes should come with every slab.

CGC used to offer the notes for free. The same discussions were being held back then as they are today.

CGC would help itself immensely if it gave grader notes free. It would be better serving the customer, and help CGC by heading off accusations of undergrading in situations as described above. It would cost them nothing to do this. Come on CGC listen to your customers. Grader notes should come with every slab.

 

CGC used to offer the notes for free. The same discussions were being held back then as they are today.

CGC would help itself immensely if it gave grader notes free. It would be better serving the customer, and help CGC by heading off accusations of undergrading in situations as described above. It would cost them nothing to do this. Come on CGC listen to your customers. Grader notes should come with every slab.

 

CGC used to offer the notes for free. The same discussions were being held back then as they are today.

 

Graders notes are for rookies.

CGC would help itself immensely if it gave grader notes free. It would be better serving the customer, and help CGC by heading off accusations of undergrading in situations as described above. It would cost them nothing to do this. Come on CGC listen to your customers. Grader notes should come with every slab.

I'm curious as to just how much they make off those notes. I've bought them a few times, once when I was perplexed why a book I submitted got such a low grade and another time when I was debating among three different copies of Strange Tales 110. But ya, otherwise just seems a waste of money, and makes sense that when I pay to have something graded that I could actually see the graders' notes explaining said grade.

Since inception until the recent "pay to know", it was "call for notes". On the surface it didn't make any sense in a modern world, and many here begged, pleaded and assumed at some point CGC would get the grader's notes online.

So obviously, at this point, there's some intent behind not providing notes as part of the service. Maybe in some way it helps commoditize slabs when the focus stays on the what (Big Number) instead of the the why (grader's notes)? Who knows.

It still makes little sense that an exam wouldn't include what was found. So there's got to be some fundamental self-serving reason not to include them.