Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221

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I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

This.

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

This.

 

Thanks FT. Not sure what is going on but for a while now 95% of my posts are not replied to. I appreciate it.

Your posts are thoughtful, articulate, and make a lot of sense. You stick out like a sore thumb around here and should probably leave.

Any word yet as if CGC was able to buy the JIM #83 from the collector? At the price they offered I would not want to sell. It is a sharp copy either way.

This thread will end just like the last one about the JIM #83. Shrouded in mystery.

Does Kav have the book or what

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

 

This.

+1

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

 

This.

 

+1

+1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now?

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

I think you are absolutely correct here. If there were a standard the grader would have gotten out a ruler, measured the crease, and deducted x amount of points for that flaw. If people here are correct in their suggestions that the graders only take somewhere between 30-120 seconds to grade every book I can see why this isn't getting done.

Does Kav have the book or what

Kav owns both books. The Blue and the Purple.

The "CGC Blue-Purple-Blue 76er Copy" of JIM 83 might very well go down as a very famous or infamous book (depending on how one looks at this). Will definitely have a place in recent comic book history and might even have some impact on its market value if it ever come up for sale.

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

This.

 

+1

 

+1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now?

Granted the notable flaw on this particular JIM 83 would preclude it from being a 7.0 for many here, but not everyone judging by some of the raw grades I've seen posted in the sales forum. Early in this thread bomber-bob mentions when the book was his, he didn't resubmit, as he was told by Matt (Nelson?) that it could as easily come back a 5.5 as a 6.5. That's a three grade range. So is 6.0-7.0. Neither range is any more or less indicative of a standard, it's just that Matt and CGC's mid-point differs slightly.

There seems to be an expectation that a company that uses multiple shifting graders, in a hobby where grading criteria has never been set in stone, should have sharply defined grading standards that would narrow the potential grade range further. Not an unreasonable expectation for a company whose reputation is built on their ability to grade, but repeated examples of grade changes shown on these boards indicate that will not be the case 100% of the time.

I don't believe anyone routinely grades based on a deductive point system to arrive at a number, The variety, size and compound nature of individual flaws would make this make this increasingly complicated as one goes down the grading ladder. Even if CGCs graders are given a grading "bible" to memorize and follow, gut feel is going to be a determining factor at arriving at a specific grade, as it is for just about all of us (whether we admit it or not). I qualify this, as there is possibly at least one OCD boardie who sits down with a graphing calculator when grading books.

Does Kav have the book or what

 

Kav owns both books. The Blue and the Purple.

There is only one book and it's Blurple.

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

This.

 

Thanks FT. Not sure what is going on but for a while now 95% of my posts are not replied to. I appreciate it.

You should probably try including more unsupported arguments, overstated attacks on CGC or its defenders, and direct criticism of the posts of others.

And for the record, my own preference is the better eye-appeal when deciding between two books in the same apparent condition. I agree that buying in a slab only has an advantage if one is looking to flip and it's a high dollar or high grade book, or if its a book that looks undergraded. That's not to say there aren't deals to be had as a buyer on all manner of slabbed books, but that they are deals would indicate that the seller probably didn't benefit from paying for the slabbing.

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

 

This.

 

+1

 

+1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now?

+1

Blue. Purple. Blue. Purple.

That's going to be my new screen name...

I think CGC is going dark on this and will wait for it to go away. And by the vigorous defenders of CGCs grading who see this as an isolated, one-in-a-million-what's-the-big-deal kind of thing...it's obvious there are dealers who don't want change. They profit from playing the resub game.

For them, CGC is purr-fect-o.

Most people buy the number (eBay), while they buy the book, resub, and voila, the number changes.

On a side note, how much would it cost to start a grading company? 1 million? 2 millions?

Honest question, since I have no clue.

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

This.

 

Thanks FT. Not sure what is going on but for a while now 95% of my posts are not replied to. I appreciate it.

 

You should probably try including more unsupported arguments, overstated attacks on CGC or its defenders, and direct criticism of the posts of others.

 

Bingo. The reason people don't reply to POV is because he's usually bang on.

On a side note, how much would it cost to start a grading company? 1 million? 2 millions?

Honest question, since I have no clue.

That information is secret.

I keep reading that grading is subjective, grading is subjective, grading is subjective, okay, no argument grading is subjective. But in this case, it's one book, with one major flaw. Now, either CGC has a standard for that flaw or they don't. Different graders gave this flaw a different grade. Doesn't sound like a standard. No standards scares me.

Go ahead guys, ignore my comment yet again. I can't even get a response from Kav on this ?!?

This.

 

+1

 

+1 from me. This is the root of the issue. This issue flopped back and forth between blue and purple so much that any claim to having set standards in detection is absolutely unbelievable. How can one trust any universal grade that isn't a modern book now?

 

Granted the notable flaw on this particular JIM 83 would preclude it from being a 7.0 for many here, but not everyone judging by some of the raw grades I've seen posted in the sales forum. Early in this thread bomber-bob mentions when the book was his, he didn't resubmit, as he was told by Matt (Nelson?) that it could as easily come back a 5.5 as a 6.5. That's a three grade range. So is 6.0-7.0. Neither range is any more or less indicative of a standard, it's just that Matt and CGC's mid-point differs slightly.

 

There seems to be an expectation that a company that uses multiple shifting graders, in a hobby where grading criteria has never been set in stone, should have sharply defined grading standards that would narrow the potential grade range further. Not an unreasonable expectation for a company whose reputation is built on their ability to grade, but repeated examples of grade changes shown on these boards indicate that will not be the case 100% of the time.

 

I don't believe anyone routinely grades based on a deductive point system to arrive at a number, The variety, size and compound nature of individual flaws would make this make this increasingly complicated as one goes down the grading ladder. Even if CGCs graders are given a grading "bible" to memorize and follow, gut feel is going to be a determining factor at arriving at a specific grade, as it is for just about all of us (whether we admit it or not). I qualify this, as there is possibly at least one OCD boardie who sits down with a graphing calculator when grading books.

You make a good point when you say the hobby doesn't have a set in stone standard. However, I'd argue it's not just an unreasonable expectation that the company whose sole job is to grade books has a concrete grading system, I'd say it's inexcusable that they don't.

I'd also agree with you that most people don't sit down with a calculator and ruler to add up each individual flaw as it would get complicated. However, CGC isn't most people. They are a company being paid for a service so there is no excuse to why they can't do this. If I really wanted to, I could sit down and figure out tax code and go step by step through my returns and do them myself but I'd rather pay an accountant to do it.

Bottom line is the quality and consistency coming out of CGC right now seems to be on par with what a somewhat knowledgeable collector could produce.

On a side note, how much would it cost to start a grading company? 1 million? 2 millions?

Honest question, since I have no clue.

 

That information is secret.

But we can try to come up with an estimation....

No matter what you say about CGC they are selling confidence in the condition of a book vs the wild wild west days when you didn't know what you were getting. Everyone would still prefer a slabbed book to a raw book of the same apparent condition. This is what you are paying for, not perfection of results. That is impossible.

 

It depends on the circumstances and the individual. Like others here, I have enough experience in judging a book's grade and in restoration to be comfortable making a judgement on a raw book. If a raw and a slabbed were in the same grade and the similarly priced, I would buy the raw for my collection, allowing me to examine it fully. I would buy the slabbed if I wanted to resell in the holder, as it would save me time and money in getting it graded.

 

For example, I bought a slabbed 5.5 Mister Mystery some years back. Looked very nice until I cracked it and there were a pair of spline splits...about 3/4" at the top and a "spider-web split" smack in the center of the spine of about an inch, going about 1/2" into the back cover. Had I seen that raw I would not have paid as much as I did.

 

Don't think these boards represent the general world of comic collecting. This is a fairly rarefied atmosphere. We have developed a baseline that includes CGC. It colors our perception of what the collecting world is really like.

 

 

 

 

This.

 

Thanks FT. Not sure what is going on but for a while now 95% of my posts are not replied to. I appreciate it.

 

You should probably try including more unsupported arguments, overstated attacks on CGC or its defenders, and direct criticism of the posts of others.

 

 

Bingo. The reason people don't reply to POV is because he's usually bang on.

 

I always think no one reads my posts because either no one responds or 40 minutes later someone posts pretty much the same thing. I figure that's because I'm a noob though