Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221

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@timern..

I got/get what you are saying friend,and I must say I see you very consistently grading in the PGM thread,you're pretty in and a wicked nice guy!

Just saying I don't want anything AT ALL on my book added by any company.

You are right though on the re subbing screwballing up the census.its a shame,certainly

If CGC really wanted to "tag" books that had been previously graded, I'm not sure why they would need to mark the book at all. Certainly there has to be some type of recognition or mapping software that could be used to scan books for a database. Between the variations in wraps, cuts, and defects like spine stress or creases there would be a fairly good probability that you could capture unique identifiers for a book that would allow a high degree of recognition. Hell, all of us can look at these two scans of the JIM #83 in question and see it is the same book because of the uniqueness of that spine crease and various points along it. This shouldn't be an issue.

 

EDIT: Yes, books can change over various resubmissions, either by accumulating more defects or through something like pressing. Neither of these would alter all of the unique points on a book (for example, where the artwork meets the edges of the front cover wouldn't change unless a book was trimmed, and color breaking creases or spine stress would still be present. Depending on how this was done, it could theoretically contribute to being able to catch spine realignments that simply move color breaking spine stress to the back cover.

If they had that kind of optical recognition software then they most likely wouldn't need "professional graders"?

So it's 4PM East Coast time and nothin' yet from CGC in the way of a statement. It may not yet be resolved but any update would be better than no update. Get your together folks. As someone that would be considered "pro-CGC", my opinion is your silence in this matter is more damaging than coming out and admitting you screwed up.

If CGC really wanted to "tag" books that had been previously graded, I'm not sure why they would need to mark the book at all. Certainly there has to be some type of recognition or mapping software that could be used to scan books for a database. Between the variations in wraps, cuts, and defects like spine stress or creases there would be a fairly good probability that you could capture unique identifiers for a book that would allow a high degree of recognition. Hell, all of us can look at these two scans of the JIM #83 in question and see it is the same book because of the uniqueness of that spine crease and various points along it. This shouldn't be an issue.

 

EDIT: Yes, books can change over various resubmissions, either by accumulating more defects or through something like pressing. Neither of these would alter all of the unique points on a book (for example, where the artwork meets the edges of the front cover wouldn't change unless a book was trimmed, and color breaking creases or spine stress would still be present. Depending on how this was done, it could theoretically contribute to being able to catch spine realignments that simply move color breaking spine stress to the back cover.

 

If they had that kind of optical recognition software then they most likely wouldn't need "professional graders"?

How does optical recognition equate to grading? Simply recognizing unique points on a book is a separate matter from then also assigning a grade to that book.

If CGC really wanted to "tag" books that had been previously graded, I'm not sure why they would need to mark the book at all. Certainly there has to be some type of recognition or mapping software that could be used to scan books for a database. Between the variations in wraps, cuts, and defects like spine stress or creases there would be a fairly good probability that you could capture unique identifiers for a book that would allow a high degree of recognition. Hell, all of us can look at these two scans of the JIM #83 in question and see it is the same book because of the uniqueness of that spine crease and various points along it. This shouldn't be an issue.

 

EDIT: Yes, books can change over various resubmissions, either by accumulating more defects or through something like pressing. Neither of these would alter all of the unique points on a book (for example, where the artwork meets the edges of the front cover wouldn't change unless a book was trimmed, and color breaking creases or spine stress would still be present. Depending on how this was done, it could theoretically contribute to being able to catch spine realignments that simply move color breaking spine stress to the back cover.

 

If they had that kind of optical recognition software then they most likely wouldn't need "professional graders"?

 

How does optical recognition equate to grading? Simply recognizing unique points on a book is a separate matter from then also assigning a grade to that book.

Optical recognition will never work for grading. There is more to comics than juts 2 dimensional flaws. There is smell, feel, gloss, etc.

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

 

I actually updated a few pages back...... I have no update.

Do all comics of a certain vintage share the same exact dimensions from the cutter at the printing plant, or do they vary slightly? Although the centering may be off, I thought the cutter would be set for a fixed height and width that would make all non-trimmed comics exactly the same dimensions. And hence, trimming could be confirmed or verified by measuring a book's height and width in millimeters.

@timern..

I got/get what you are saying friend,and I must say I see you very consistently grading in the PGM thread,you're pretty in and a wicked nice guy!

Just saying I don't want anything AT ALL on my book added by any company.

You are right though on the re subbing screwballing up the census.its a shame,certainly

I hear you Jimmers, it was just an attempt on my part to try and stir things up a little with regard to the way the census is being screwed up with this CPR game (Which I learned yesterday has nothing to do with a drowning person)

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

I haven't heard a peep

 

I don't really expect to

 

I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you.

 

CGC is in discussions with the buyer

 

I don't understand why they aren't in discussions with YOU. You're the guy that got hosed...

 

No, he didn't. He played the game and lost this particular round. Harsh? Maybe. But it is still reality. How many rounds has he "won" based on CGC's services? I'm guessing a lot more than he's lost given that he is going to continue with this particular business model even after this loss.

I don't understand that rationale. He buys a book, pays for a service and hopes for a grade uptick, which is subjective. Restoration detection is NOT subjective. It's either restored or it's not. Isn't there something wrong with that? He IS paying for their service.

Really hoping we get an update from the OP on this today...

 

I haven't heard a peep

 

I don't really expect to

 

I think CGC will address this in public, not via PM with you.

 

CGC is in discussions with the buyer

 

I don't understand why they aren't in discussions with YOU. You're the guy that got hosed...

 

No, he didn't. He played the game and lost this particular round. Harsh? Maybe. But it is still reality. How many rounds has he "won" based on CGC's services? I'm guessing a lot more than he's lost given that he is going to continue with this particular business model even after this loss.

 

I don't understand that rationale. He buys a book, pays for a service and hopes for a grade uptick, which is subjective. Restoration detection is NOT subjective. It's either restored or it's not. Isn't there something wrong with that? He IS paying for their service.

Either it's restored or it isn't. That may be true. However, detecting whether or not it is restored is not something that is able to be done with 100% certainty. Especially trimming. That should not be news to anyone, least of all someone whose very business model is resubbing and flipping books.

Either he should have done more homework and been aware of this or he did do the homework, was aware of this and still made a concious decision that the rewards outweighed the risks.

BTW, my guess is the latter is true.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Thanks that was a cogent response. Are there cases where trim cannot be detected?

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Good statement. I'm glad you are admitting to making a mistake as opposed to trying to deflect.

I too have not read this entire thread but I get the jist of it.

 

Would it be more conducive to discretely "tattoo" the interior of the book with the CGC number to prevent this kind of fiasco? I think it would certainly prevent the books from going through the resubmittal and screwing up the census.

 

 

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book.

 

THEY BETTER NOT.

I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won.

If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it

If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded.

 

At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this!

That the book was previously means squat.

The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals

So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade??????????

But sometimes people bust books out for other reasons.years ago I broke out my ST 110 because I wanted to read it,smell it ect...Since then I have upgraded,this time with a raw book.with the prices going nuts I may one day(shudder) trade my old copy for something.said person who gets this book(with the old label label saved for them) may very well re submit...I take great care of my comics,but cannot guarantee it was not damaged at all....the tattooing idea leaves a terrible taste in my mouth.

It's not like an ink-like tattoo. I just used the terminology to give you the idea that if the books were "tagged" that at least there would be some way of knowing the history of the book. And I'm not saying that the only reason someone breaks open a slabbed book is to resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade but let's not fool ourselves, is that not what ultimately happened here?

 

If the book had been "inconspicuously tagged" and if the book would have been resubmitted to CGC, they would have scanned the "inconspicuous tag printed with invisible ink somewhere on the interior page(s)" and then they would have informed the graders that it had already been graded previously. I'm sure that they would pull the notes from the previous grade and make a comparison to current condition and then decide from there how it would be handled.

 

The way it is right now someone de-slabs a book and resubmits it hoping for a higher grade because who knows what kind of night the grader had? Fingers crossed it comes back with a higher grade and then you have two books in the census - one of which no longer exists? How often does this happen? How many non-existent resubmitted upgraded books are there?

 

If any of you reading this have participated in the PGM thread or the March/April/May Madness thread, how many of you have tried to grade the same book more than once (and not five or ten minutes a part) I mean like a week later or two? Did you come up with the same grade? Most likely not unless the book is in the very lower or very upper grading tiers.

 

Going this route treats the customer like a criminal and exposes the fact that CGC cannot catch all restoration despite their claims. I don't want CGC chemically treating my books just to make their life easier.

And I suppose this route that we are in right now is making everyone's lives "easy"?

Not my problem they cant catch the resto but they better not chemically change/alter my property just to make their Job easier.

I too have not read this entire thread but I get the jist of it.

 

Would it be more conducive to discretely "tattoo" the interior of the book with the CGC number to prevent this kind of fiasco? I think it would certainly prevent the books from going through the resubmittal and screwing up the census.

 

 

If i remember correctly, PSA/DNA has invisible ink. CGC could use that to barcode a book.

 

THEY BETTER NOT.

I don't want them adding chemicals to a book I won.

If I take it out and keep it raw why should they keep their mark on it

If they were to use invisible UV ink to "tattoo" the book in an inconspicuous area inside the book what difference would it make to you? Just means that if someone were to resubmit the book for grading it would come up in the CGC system as a book that had already been graded.

 

At least the customer could be notified that the book had previously been graded. I'm sure there are other logical advantages that could come of this!

That the book was previously means squat.

The person breaks it out for SS or mishandles it. IT results in new grade. The tattoo will accomplish nothing except add chemicals to a book that is sensitive to chemicals

So tell me why someone would break it out of a holder, mis-handle it and then submit it to expect a higher grade??????????

But sometimes people bust books out for other reasons.years ago I broke out my ST 110 because I wanted to read it,smell it ect...Since then I have upgraded,this time with a raw book.with the prices going nuts I may one day(shudder) trade my old copy for something.said person who gets this book(with the old label label saved for them) may very well re submit...I take great care of my comics,but cannot guarantee it was not damaged at all....the tattooing idea leaves a terrible taste in my mouth.

It's not like an ink-like tattoo. I just used the terminology to give you the idea that if the books were "tagged" that at least there would be some way of knowing the history of the book. And I'm not saying that the only reason someone breaks open a slabbed book is to resubmit it hoping to get a higher grade but let's not fool ourselves, is that not what ultimately happened here?

 

If the book had been "inconspicuously tagged" and if the book would have been resubmitted to CGC, they would have scanned the "inconspicuous tag printed with invisible ink somewhere on the interior page(s)" and then they would have informed the graders that it had already been graded previously. I'm sure that they would pull the notes from the previous grade and make a comparison to current condition and then decide from there how it would be handled.

 

The way it is right now someone de-slabs a book and resubmits it hoping for a higher grade because who knows what kind of night the grader had? Fingers crossed it comes back with a higher grade and then you have two books in the census - one of which no longer exists? How often does this happen? How many non-existent resubmitted upgraded books are there?

 

If any of you reading this have participated in the PGM thread or the March/April/May Madness thread, how many of you have tried to grade the same book more than once (and not five or ten minutes a part) I mean like a week later or two? Did you come up with the same grade? Most likely not unless the book is in the very lower or very upper grading tiers.

 

Going this route treats the customer like a criminal and exposes the fact that CGC cannot catch all restoration despite their claims. I don't want CGC chemically treating my books just to make their life easier.

And I suppose this route that we are in right now is making everyone's lives "easy"?

 

Not my problem they cant catch the resto but they better not chemically change/alter my property just to make their Job easier.

 

Keep your meathooks off me and my stuff

@CGC

Let us know when you have the book in hand.

Also, will you be purchasing ALL books that have slipped through your system ?

@CGC

 

Let us know when you have the book in hand.

 

Also, will you be purchasing ALL books that have slipped through the system ?

Please do not destroy it-just plod it.

If CGC really wanted to "tag" books that had been previously graded, I'm not sure why they would need to mark the book at all. Certainly there has to be some type of recognition or mapping software that could be used to scan books for a database. Between the variations in wraps, cuts, and defects like spine stress or creases there would be a fairly good probability that you could capture unique identifiers for a book that would allow a high degree of recognition. Hell, all of us can look at these two scans of the JIM #83 in question and see it is the same book because of the uniqueness of that spine crease and various points along it. This shouldn't be an issue.

 

EDIT: Yes, books can change over various resubmissions, either by accumulating more defects or through something like pressing. Neither of these would alter all of the unique points on a book (for example, where the artwork meets the edges of the front cover wouldn't change unless a book was trimmed, and color breaking creases or spine stress would still be present. Depending on how this was done, it could theoretically contribute to being able to catch spine realignments that simply move color breaking spine stress to the back cover.

 

If they had that kind of optical recognition software then they most likely wouldn't need "professional graders"?

 

How does optical recognition equate to grading? Simply recognizing unique points on a book is a separate matter from then also assigning a grade to that book.

 

Optical recognition will never work for grading. There is more to comics than juts 2 dimensional flaws. There is smell, feel, gloss, etc.

 

Roy, I never claimed it would, as laid out in my longer post above that you quoted. My suggestion was as an alternative to marking a book in some way to record that it had been graded previously. Two separate issues.

Greetings all,

 

So in going over this JIM #83, we made a mistake on this one.

 

The book IS trimmed (on the top edge of the cover), as we went over it thoroughly in February. So how did it come through just last week and go out the door as a blue label? Well, first off, it was certainly *not* any kind of under-the-table deal with anybody. As it has been often stated, the graders do not know who the submitter is and grades every book as if it is the first time they have seen it. This also has nothing to do with which graders saw the book. Quite simply, when it comes to checking for restoration, some books are *obviously* restored (or trimmed) and some are obviously not. There are a few books, though, where the restoration can be extremely subtle and require extra scrutiny. If nothing sends up a "red flag" for the particular graders on a book, it can, unfortunately (but rarely), get by us.

 

Like others have said in this thread, and we have stated ourselves, we are not perfect. But the team of graders we have here are, bar none, the best in the business. In grading nearly 3 million books, we have admittedly made errors. But when an error is brought to our attention we fix whatever the problem is. We strive to "make it right" for the owner so that everyone comes away satisfied.

 

Right now we are in the process of purchasing the JIM #83 from the new owner in order to remove it from the market.

 

We obviously take great pride in the confidence that people have in CGC, we appreciate their trust, and are always trying to improve our company in every way, from restoration detection, to turnaround times, to our holder, and more.

 

Thank you all for taking the time to read this.

Kudos for addressing the problem appropriately. But this doesn't make me feel any better about their ability to detect trimming with any certainty.