Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221

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Several people have said it would only cost $100 to have this thing walked thru, as it would only be 3% of the FMV of a restored book. I dont believe they are correct. The original owner paid much much more for his walk thru and the new buyer would not be submitting the book as as a PLOD, but rather as a raw book.

This wasn't a hundred dollar shot in the dark, this was a $500 shot in the dark. Unless the new owner lives within driving distance of Sarasota, it was an $800 shot in the dark. Lets see where this book ends up for sale. I have my suspicions, already.

 

This was no "shot in the dark"!

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

 

It'll be very interesting to see when and where this book ends up for sale because it certainly wasn't bought as a "keeper" by a collector.

Yikes. That's a pretty big GUARANTEE. And a heck of an accusation.

Dan

Several people have said it would only cost $100 to have this thing walked thru, as it would only be 3% of the FMV of a restored book. I dont believe they are correct. The original owner paid much much more for his walk thru and the new buyer would not be submitting the book as as a PLOD, but rather as a raw book.

This wasn't a hundred dollar shot in the dark, this was a $500 shot in the dark. Unless the new owner lives within driving distance of Sarasota, it was an $800 shot in the dark. Lets see where this book ends up for sale. I have my suspicions, already.

 

This was no "shot in the dark"!

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

 

It'll be very interesting to see when and where this book ends up for sale because it certainly wasn't bought as a "keeper" by a collector.

 

Yikes. That's a pretty big GUARANTEE. And a heck of an accusation.

 

Dan

I'll just say this, after my Avengers 4 situation, I received enough info from boardies that are BEYOND trustworthy that makes me 100% confident that's what happened.

I do agree that the most likely scenario was that the book was sent in raw with no label. Heck, the person who resubmitted it could have had the edge that was trimmed roughed up to make it less noticeable.

 

With a label or not, since when does adding a label preclude the book not getting a regrade? CGC's policy is that as long as a book is removed from it's holder/inner well, it needs to be regraded. If they hand out free reholders based on submitting a book with the label, then we have a bigger issue than what's been exposed in this thread.

 

As for the scenario of "tweaking" the book to get the blue label - not a chance. This book was submitted by someone who clearly disagreed with CGC's assessment it was trimmed, and/or seems to have developed a way of identifying books or a manner of submitting which exposes CGC's grading inconsistency.

 

I concede this could be explained by someone with experience submitting in a manner that assures him a "less is more" service, or where there's a set of eyes/resources are absent from the grading mix due to time constraints or needing to crank out a high volume of submissions for a weekend show.

 

Regardless, what matters most here is how they handled this when it was brought to their attention the first time. The thing they missed most is the opportunity cost of averting this alternate ending from playing out.

Joe, the board member who purchased the book could have cracked it out and sold it raw down the line as an unrestored book. There are always options other than having it re-graded.

Your post did get me thinking so I went back and looked at the day the book was graded. It was 3/27/2014. That was the Thursday many of the CGC staff were flying into Seattle. I saw Paul at the show. Not sure if he flew out Thursday or Friday but the book had to be finalized by someone left at CGC. I am not 100% on CGC's policy on walk-thru books but someone has to finalize it.

For the submitter to know the travel plans and availability of who would have been working that day would be timing of epic proportions. Not saying that someone out there could not have planned to have the book there understanding the dynamics of CGC's staffing issues just before a show, but it is a stretch.

Several people have said it would only cost $100 to have this thing walked thru, as it would only be 3% of the FMV of a restored book. I dont believe they are correct. The original owner paid much much more for his walk thru and the new buyer would not be submitting the book as as a PLOD, but rather as a raw book.

This wasn't a hundred dollar shot in the dark, this was a $500 shot in the dark. Unless the new owner lives within driving distance of Sarasota, it was an $800 shot in the dark. Lets see where this book ends up for sale. I have my suspicions, already.

 

This was no "shot in the dark"!

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

 

It'll be very interesting to see when and where this book ends up for sale because it certainly wasn't bought as a "keeper" by a collector.

The book would be very easy to sell on ebay to someone who wouldnt have a clue about any of this. Just price it slightly aggressively and it would sell in less than a day. Considering the profit margin on CGC's screw up, he's got lots of room to make tons and move it almost instantly.

Simple fix would be for cgc to contact seller and buyer. Buy the book and buy their silents. Let it blow over one more day till Tues and come out and tell everyone they just played the greatest April fools joke on their boards.....thats what the goverment would do.

Several people have said it would only cost $100 to have this thing walked thru, as it would only be 3% of the FMV of a restored book. I dont believe they are correct. The original owner paid much much more for his walk thru and the new buyer would not be submitting the book as as a PLOD, but rather as a raw book.

This wasn't a hundred dollar shot in the dark, this was a $500 shot in the dark. Unless the new owner lives within driving distance of Sarasota, it was an $800 shot in the dark. Lets see where this book ends up for sale. I have my suspicions, already.

 

This was no "shot in the dark"!

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

 

It'll be very interesting to see when and where this book ends up for sale because it certainly wasn't bought as a "keeper" by a collector.

 

Yikes. That's a pretty big GUARANTEE. And a heck of an accusation.

 

Dan

 

I'll just say this, after my Avengers 4 situation, I received enough info from boardies that are BEYOND trustworthy that makes me 100% confident that's what happened.

That really blows. This is a very sad and goofed up situation.

Dan

Several people have said it would only cost $100 to have this thing walked thru, as it would only be 3% of the FMV of a restored book. I dont believe they are correct. The original owner paid much much more for his walk thru and the new buyer would not be submitting the book as as a PLOD, but rather as a raw book.

This wasn't a hundred dollar shot in the dark, this was a $500 shot in the dark. Unless the new owner lives within driving distance of Sarasota, it was an $800 shot in the dark. Lets see where this book ends up for sale. I have my suspicions, already.

 

This was no "shot in the dark"!

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

 

It'll be very interesting to see when and where this book ends up for sale because it certainly wasn't bought as a "keeper" by a collector.

 

Yikes. That's a pretty big GUARANTEE. And a heck of an accusation.

 

Dan

 

I'll just say this, after my Avengers 4 situation, I received enough info from boardies that are BEYOND trustworthy that makes me 100% confident that's what happened.

If this is true, than the whole CGC grading company is a fraud, and the board members you mentions are scammers.

Several people have said it would only cost $100 to have this thing walked thru, as it would only be 3% of the FMV of a restored book. I dont believe they are correct. The original owner paid much much more for his walk thru and the new buyer would not be submitting the book as as a PLOD, but rather as a raw book.

This wasn't a hundred dollar shot in the dark, this was a $500 shot in the dark. Unless the new owner lives within driving distance of Sarasota, it was an $800 shot in the dark. Lets see where this book ends up for sale. I have my suspicions, already.

 

This was no "shot in the dark"!

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

 

It'll be very interesting to see when and where this book ends up for sale because it certainly wasn't bought as a "keeper" by a collector.

 

The book would be very easy to sell on ebay to someone who wouldnt have a clue about any of this. Just price it slightly aggressively and it would sell in less than a day. Considering the profit margin on CGC's screw up, he's got lots of room to make tons and move it almost instantly.

 

I have a feeling that won't happen as that would reveal who owns and resubbed the book. Again, I have a feeling that info is NOT going to come to light

Does anyone here REALLY think this book was resubbed by some Joe Schmo boardie that you'd be like "who's that guy? Never heard of him???" This book will be sold either privately or thru one of the auction houses

I do agree that the most likely scenario was that the book was sent in raw with no label. Heck, the person who resubmitted it could have had the edge that was trimmed roughed up to make it less noticeable.

 

With a label or not, since when does adding a label preclude the book not getting a regrade? CGC's policy is that as long as a book is removed from it's holder/inner well, it needs to be regraded. If they hand out free reholders based on submitting a book with the label, then we have a bigger issue than what's been exposed in this thread.

 

As for the scenario of "tweaking" the book to get the blue label - not a chance. This book was submitted by someone who clearly disagreed with CGC's assessment it was trimmed, and/or seems to have developed a way of identifying books or a manner of submitting which exposes CGC's grading inconsistency.

 

I concede this could be explained by someone with experience submitting in a manner that assures him a "less is more" service, or where there's a set of eyes/resources are absent from the grading mix due to time constraints or needing to crank out a high volume of submissions for a weekend show.

 

Regardless, what matters most here is how they handled this when it was brought to their attention the first time. The thing they missed most is the opportunity cost of averting this alternate ending from playing out.

 

Joe, the board member who purchased the book could have cracked it out and sold it raw down the line as an unrestored book. There are always options other than having it re-graded.

 

Your post did get me thinking so I went back and looked at the day the book was graded. It was 3/27/2014. That was the Thursday many of the CGC staff were flying into Seattle. I saw Paul at the show. Not sure if he flew out Thursday or Friday but the book had to be finalized by someone left at CGC. I am not 100% on CGC's policy on walk-thru books but someone has to finalize it.

 

For the submitter to know the travel plans and availability of who would have been working that day would be timing of epic proportions. Not saying that someone out there could not have planned to have the book there understanding the dynamics of CGC's staffing issues just before a show, but it is a stretch.

Yeah, I don't want to get hung-up on plausibility here, because for all we know this could have been a "better luck next time" scenario. However even when I did a handful of shows back to back, I had a good understanding of which people participated at which events, and this carried over to year after year because it was the same handful of people participating. While I wasn't wired to develop a scheme around timing my submissions on a skeleton crew scenario, I reserve some possibility it isn't that big a stretch for someone whose motivation to making money at any cost might easily figure this out and expose this to their benefit.

The thing that would concern me more than this "timing" play is someone having a better understanding of trimming than CGC's own in-house grading experts. Apart from the possibility this is a random luck situation, the idea that "trimmed" examples have been cherry-picked like this before is a disturbing thought, but not a stretch given the way some people incessantly obsess over trying to game the system as long as there's money to be made.

I've enjoyed this thread immensely. No, please keep the theories coming, one of the 100 theories is bound to be correct.

I do agree that the most likely scenario was that the book was sent in raw with no label. Heck, the person who resubmitted it could have had the edge that was trimmed roughed up to make it less noticeable.

 

With a label or not, since when does adding a label preclude the book not getting a regrade? CGC's policy is that as long as a book is removed from it's holder/inner well, it needs to be regraded. If they hand out free reholders based on submitting a book with the label, then we have a bigger issue than what's been exposed in this thread.

 

As for the scenario of "tweaking" the book to get the blue label - not a chance. This book was submitted by someone who clearly disagreed with CGC's assessment it was trimmed, and/or seems to have developed a way of identifying books or a manner of submitting which exposes CGC's grading inconsistency.

 

I concede this could be explained by someone with experience submitting in a manner that assures him a "less is more" service, or where there's a set of eyes/resources are absent from the grading mix due to time constraints or needing to crank out a high volume of submissions for a weekend show.

 

Regardless, what matters most here is how they handled this when it was brought to their attention the first time. The thing they missed most is the opportunity cost of averting this alternate ending from playing out.

 

Joe, the board member who purchased the book could have cracked it out and sold it raw down the line as an unrestored book. There are always options other than having it re-graded.

 

Your post did get me thinking so I went back and looked at the day the book was graded. It was 3/27/2014. That was the Thursday many of the CGC staff were flying into Seattle. I saw Paul at the show. Not sure if he flew out Thursday or Friday but the book had to be finalized by someone left at CGC. I am not 100% on CGC's policy on walk-thru books but someone has to finalize it.

 

For the submitter to know the travel plans and availability of who would have been working that day would be timing of epic proportions. Not saying that someone out there could not have planned to have the book there understanding the dynamics of CGC's staffing issues just before a show, but it is a stretch.

 

Yeah, I don't want to get hung-up on plausibility here, because for all we know this could have been a "better luck next time" scenario. However even when I did a handful of shows back to back, I had a good understanding of which people participated at which events, and this carried over to year after year because it was the same handful of people participating.

 

The thing that would concern me more than this "timing" play is someone having a better understanding of trimming than CGC's own in-house grading experts. Apart from this possibility this is a random luck situation, the idea that "trimmed" examples have been cherry-picked like this before is a disturbing thought, but not a stretch given the way some people incessantly obsess over trying to game the system as long as there's money to be made.

On these points I agree 100%. As long as a buck or a few thousand are there to be made, someone will try and game the system. No system can prepare in advance for every scenario coming its way. It is how the system reacts that's important here.

 

I GUARANTEE you that this book was resubbed with a full explanation of its previous blue label by someone big enough to have confidence that CGC would change back the label with a wink and a smile. It's not the 1st time.

The posts in this thread are next level dumb.

My guess this will not be resolved till the book is sold then sent in again

That may take a long long time

CGC will just explain that they are human and grading is subjective

The train has left the station for CGC !

 

On these points I agree 100%. As long as a buck or a few thousand are there to be made, someone will try and game the system. No system can prepare in advance for every scenario coming its way. It is how the system reacts that's important here.

I agree, the mistake isnt the scandal, mistakes can happen, its how they respond that matters.

The way I see it, lets assume the book is in fact NOT trimmed.

a.) They have correctly graded it blue 6.0 twice.

b.) He tried to resub a blue for a grade bump, comes back purple

c.) They incorrectly graded it as trimmed, and purpled it. When they become aware of their error, rather than admitting to the mistake, and saying, whoops, it ISNT trimmed.

They fed him a BS story, and told him to take a hike.

Its the hubris and arrogance of making him eat the purple rather than admitting they got it wrong. That's the most likely scenario, and the problem with their complete lack of accountability, public standards, etc etc.

I am actually NOT surprised...

This just supports what I have been saying for years. What are their standards?!?!?

Just think about what happened:

They grade a book (expensive one) 6.0 Blue. It passed through 3 expert graders hands.

They grade the same book and it comes back 7.0 purple going through 3 expert hands (why the grade change? I thought these were experts)

They look at the book again and verify that it’s a 7.0 purple restored (assuming 3 more hands)

They re-grade the book as a 6.0 blue a month later going through 3 expert hands

That’s potentially 12 experts looking at this book and all coming up with contradictory grades and restoration detection. Not to mention the additional scrutiny of having a re-check. Is this an isolated incident or the only one with a paper trail to date. It’s not like we’re paying $5 per book to get it graded either. They are charging substantial fees for their expertise. Don’t give me “it’s subjective”, if that were the case then PGX and Vault would then be on par with CGC after seeing this.

Flat out: They cannot accurately detect trimming unless it’s blatant. If trimming is the only restoration they suspect, they need to pull out their rulers down to the mm and check it for the fees they charge. The micro-trimming fiasco was the first hint that there was a dead horse on the table. As far as the original poster, I think CGC owes him a check.

I haven't read the entire thread, however, I read enough to get the jist of what's going on here. Plain and simple:

It was stated after the initial change to a PLOD that anyone with any grading ability at CGC looked at this book. Upon the most recent re-sub it would have passed through the hands of two regular graders and gone on to a senior grader for it's final grade assignment. There is absolutely no way that any of the senior graders saw this book before and didn't remember it. The creasing along the spine is too distinct.

CGC either owes Spider-Dan some money and needs to admit they up when he re-subbed the book or their reputation means nothing. Or... it boils down to the fact that if you know the right people or are the right person you can get grades, label colors etc. changed with a phone call.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect to hear about PGX not CGC.

I do agree that the most likely scenario was that the book was sent in raw with no label. Heck, the person who resubmitted it could have had the edge that was trimmed roughed up to make it less noticeable.

 

With a label or not, since when does adding a label preclude the book not getting a regrade? CGC's policy is that as long as a book is removed from it's holder/inner well, it needs to be regraded. If they hand out free reholders based on submitting a book with the label, then we have a bigger issue than what's been exposed in this thread.

 

As for the scenario of "tweaking" the book to get the blue label - not a chance. This book was submitted by someone who clearly disagreed with CGC's assessment it was trimmed, and/or seems to have developed a way of identifying books or a manner of submitting which exposes CGC's grading inconsistency.

 

I concede this could be explained by someone with experience submitting in a manner that assures him a "less is more" service, or where there's a set of eyes/resources are absent from the grading mix due to time constraints or needing to crank out a high volume of submissions for a weekend show.

 

Regardless, what matters most here is how they handled this when it was brought to their attention the first time. The thing they missed most is the opportunity cost of averting this alternate ending from playing out.

 

Joe, the board member who purchased the book could have cracked it out and sold it raw down the line as an unrestored book. There are always options other than having it re-graded.

 

Your post did get me thinking so I went back and looked at the day the book was graded. It was 3/27/2014. That was the Thursday many of the CGC staff were flying into Seattle. I saw Paul at the show. Not sure if he flew out Thursday or Friday but the book had to be finalized by someone left at CGC. I am not 100% on CGC's policy on walk-thru books but someone has to finalize it.

 

For the submitter to know the travel plans and availability of who would have been working that day would be timing of epic proportions. Not saying that someone out there could not have planned to have the book there understanding the dynamics of CGC's staffing issues just before a show, but it is a stretch.

 

Yeah, I don't want to get hung-up on plausibility here, because for all we know this could have been a "better luck next time" scenario. However even when I did a handful of shows back to back, I had a good understanding of which people participated at which events, and this carried over to year after year because it was the same handful of people participating.

 

The thing that would concern me more than this "timing" play is someone having a better understanding of trimming than CGC's own in-house grading experts. Apart from this possibility this is a random luck situation, the idea that "trimmed" examples have been cherry-picked like this before is a disturbing thought, but not a stretch given the way some people incessantly obsess over trying to game the system as long as there's money to be made.

 

On these points I agree 100%. As long as a buck or a few thousand are there to be made, someone will try and game the system. No system can prepare in advance for every scenario coming its way. It is how the system reacts that's important here.

Until we know who it was sold to and hear from that person, we really won't know the answers.

It could have been sold raw on eBay, could have been a lot of stuff. I'm not sure why the person showed the book to Dan and if he/she knew Dan would start another thread, but maybe there is a simple explanation.

It also could have just been graded on the right/wrong day. The graders are humans. There used to be a huge GM plant near where I lived. I met many of the workers/managers when I worked in the area. They all said the same thing. "Never buy a car assembled on a Monday".

People are subject to outside influences.

What bothers me more is the scenario where the edge could have been roughed up. It might not have happened here, but I have heard of it happening on other books.

I've been slowly upgrading some of my books, I think I'm going back to downgrading. Less worry about them still being "worth" more than what they are..."books".

IBTL

Hey everyone.

 

We've been made aware of the situation, and are looking into it.

 

I just hope the books I sent in for reholders don't come back purple now.