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#7232016 - 12/06/13 12:26 PM Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations
Mr. Smith Guesser Offline
Collectosaurus Rex


Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 426
Loc: Charm City
Here are the 10 rarest Roosevelt dimes that exhibit Full Torch or Full Bands according to NGC and PCGS.

I am back and forth on how I feel about the Full Torch and Full Band Designations. On one hand, I think these designations can give a buyer a little more confidence that the Roosevelt dime they are purchasing has a good strike -- even though I have seen enough dimes with just average to below average strikes with all of their torch lines clear, well-defined, and uninterrupted. It is rare, but they do exist.

On the other hand, I feel that the FT and FB designations are given out way too generously. If there is even a shred of doubt that any of the vertical lines or either band lines are not clearly defined or interrupted by contact marks, I do not think a dime should receive a FT or FB designation. "Well...maybe" does not cut it for me.

It is important to note, however, that PCGS does not mention the vertical lines at all in their official definition of what constitutes FB. The company says, "The PCGS "Full Bands" designation for Roosevelts requires that both the upper and lower pair of bands on the torch be distinct and show full separation. The line dividing the bands must be complete and unbroken." *

Meanwhile, NGC does include the vertical lines in their official definition. They say, "The designation FT for Full Torch will be applied to Roosevelt Dimes having both upper and lower pair of horizontal bands split as well as the vertical lines of the torch being defined." **

Neither official definition, however, makes any mention of contact marks interrupting the continuity of vertical lines. But, as I said, my opinion is that Roosevelt dimes should not receive FT or FB designations if they have any contact marks through any of the vertical lines.

My strategy when looking for a full torch is to use a 10X power loupe to evaluate the lines, instead of a 16X or 20X power loupe that I would normally use to examine a dime. I figure that if I am confident that all of the torch lines are present and uninterrupted using a less powerful loupe, I am comfortable using the Full Torch label.

But all this is just my opinion. The third-party coin graders are going to do whatever they want. With that said, below are lists of the rarest Roosevelt dimes with full torch lines according to NGC's and PCGS' population reports as of 12/13. The populations below include all MS grades with FT or FB designations from each grading company.

___________NGC ___________________PCGS________
___Year/Mint ~ Total Pop.______Year/Mint ~ Total Pop.____
___1949-S______34__________1949-S______56_______
___1958-P______39__________1958-P______82_______
___1961-P______44__________1953-P______100______
___1957-P______48__________1949-P______106______
___1955-P______57__________1957-P______108______
___1953-P______59__________1963-P______110______
___1963-P______64__________1961-P______111______
___1949-P______65__________1963-D______128______
___1956-P______81__________1956-P______134______
___1963-D______85__________1955-P______135______

Clearly, the 1949-S is the rarest Roosevelt dime with full split bands according to NGC and PCGS. As the key date in the series, this is not surprising.

The 1955 P was actually the lowest mintage for the silver Roosevelt dime series. But the data above supports the long held belief that collectors hoarded 1955 Roosevelts due to low mintage and the fact that 1955 was the last year business-struck Roosevelts were minted in San Francisco.

I have heard that the 1955 dimes were only available through mint sets. However, the data that I have found does not support this. According to MintSetGuide.com, there were only 49,656 business-struck mint sets produced in 1955. (I was unable to find mint set production figures on the U.S. Mint's website, but I am 99% confident that the data from MintSetGuide.com is correct.) Here are the total production figures for comparison:

Year/Mint ~ Total Production
1955-P______12,450,181
1949-S______13,510,000
1955-D______13,959,000
1955-S______18,510,000

In conclusion, I think there should be an industry-wide standard for FT and FB designations on Roosevelt dimes. And I would personally like this standard to be much stricter than current definitions by NGC and PCGS. But alas, I am only one voice among millions.

Regards,

Mr. Smith Guesser



Further Reading:

Roosevelt Dime Attributions: NGC Full Torch "FT" vs. PCGS Full Bands "FB", by Michael Bugeja, CoinUpdate.com, April 16, 2010: http://news.coinupdate.com/roosevelt-dime-ngc-full-torch-ft-vs-pcgs-full-bands-fb-0236/

Has 1955 Roosevelt Dime Price Settled?;, by Paul M. Green, Numismatic News, April 09, 2010: http://numismaster.com/ta/numis/Article.jsp?ArticleId=10023


References:
* http://www.pcgs.com/News/Pcgs-To-Add-Full-Bands-Designation-For-Roosevelt-Dimes
** http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=426

See more journals by Mr. Smith Guesser


Edited by Mr. Smith Guesser (12/06/13 08:23 PM)

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#7232711 - 12/06/13 05:00 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: Mr. Smith Guesser]
brg5658 Online   offline
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.


Registered: 01/12/11
Posts: 2935
Loc: Minnesota
I presume this is restricted to the silver coins from 1946-1964?

The 1980 (both mints), 1990 (both mints), and 1991 (both mints) are less common in FB/FT than any you have listed. There are a few other sporadic FB/FT rarities also:

FB/FT examples
------------------------------------------------------
Date___________PCGS______NGC
------------------------------------------------------
1980-P___________2________0
1980-D___________2________1
1990-P___________1________1
1990-D___________2________0
1991-P___________6________2
1991-D___________1________1
------------------------------------------------------

It's always surprising to me that these modern coins are almost never found with a full torch/bands strike designation. For example, the 1980-P Roosevelt dime, with mintage north of 735 million coins -- yet none designated FT by NGC! I wonder how many are out there...if any.

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#7232848 - 12/06/13 05:47 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: brg5658]
yonico Offline
The Post-man always rings twice. Uhm... ring ring?


Registered: 11/01/10
Posts: 1968
Loc: NYC
 Originally Posted By: brg5658
I presume this is restricted to the silver coins from 1946-1964?

The 1980 (both mints), 1990 (both mints), and 1991 (both mints) are less common in FB/FT than any you have listed. There are a few other sporadic FB/FT rarities also:

FB/FT examples
------------------------------------------------------
Date___________PCGS______NGC
------------------------------------------------------
1980-P___________2________0
1980-D___________2________1
1990-P___________1________1
1990-D___________2________0
1991-P___________6________2
1991-D___________1________1
------------------------------------------------------

It's always surprising to me that these modern coins are almost never found with a full torch/bands strike designation. For example, the 1980-P Roosevelt dime, with mintage north of 735 million coins -- yet none designated FT by NGC! I wonder how many are out there...if any.


perhaps it has to do with the total number of coins even submitted to NGC for grading..


total coins graded by NGC:

1949-S 2189 coins

1980-P 90 coins
1980-D 82 coins
1990-P 48 coins
1990-D 72 coins
1991-P 51 coins
1991-D 41 coins

with such low numbers of coins graded by NGC, it is no wonder so few received the FT designation. if they were graded by the 1000's, like the earlier dates, i bet it would look different


Edited by yonico (12/06/13 05:47 PM)
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#7232893 - 12/06/13 06:01 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: yonico]
erwindoc Offline
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Registered: 08/02/08
Posts: 681
Loc: Erwin, TN
Id have to disagree about the FT dimes in the silver series. In my mind, the toughest dates in FT are the 58P and 57P. Both are close behind your numbers for the 49S. Price wise, in FT, both are more expensive coins especially at the top end of the grading spectrum where there are less than half of the 67FTs compared to the 49S.

The clad series adds some serious conditional rarities that likely eclipse the silver ones if you are just considering the FT designation. Problem is that the clad series is so narrowly collected that there might be rolls of FT dimes just waiting to discover, but so few collectors care to submit them.
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#7232903 - 12/06/13 06:03 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: yonico]
Mr. Smith Guesser Offline
Collectosaurus Rex


Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 426
Loc: Charm City
Yeah sorry for the confusion, it's restricted to the silver 1946-64 Roosies. But you know what, you have a great point. Ultimately NGC and PCGS can only grade and report the dates that they are submitted.

PCGS has survival estimates for both FB and non-FB dimes, and I considered adding that information to the journal. But they say that the survival estimates are an ongoing project, and from what I can tell, there appear to be some errors in the numbers.

For example, they estimate that 167,000 1946 S 10c survive at MS 65 or better. But they also estimate that 167,000 1946 S 10c survive at MS 65 FB or better. And we can assume that this is a mistake because most of the other survival estimates for FB dimes are much lower than the non-FB counterparts. So I didn't include PCGS' estimates in the journal.
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#7232910 - 12/06/13 06:08 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: erwindoc]
Mr. Smith Guesser Offline
Collectosaurus Rex


Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 426
Loc: Charm City
Yeah the '57 P and '58 P are very tough to find in FT. I don't have either date with FT or FB in my collection yet. I was just basing everything on population reports.
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#7232924 - 12/06/13 06:15 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: Mr. Smith Guesser]
Mr. Smith Guesser Offline
Collectosaurus Rex


Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 426
Loc: Charm City
Also, I forgot to add this when I was reposting the journal for the message boards.

BOOM!:


Edited by Mr. Smith Guesser (12/06/13 06:16 PM)
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#7233121 - 12/06/13 07:21 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: Mr. Smith Guesser]
mvcoins Offline
Hobbyist


Registered: 12/19/11
Posts: 41
Hi,

I have a rare NGC MS 67 FT 1949 S Roosevelt Dime for sale. Asking $650 (shipping included). If anyone is interested please let me know.

Regards,

Chris

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#7233138 - 12/06/13 07:27 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: mvcoins]
Mr. Smith Guesser Offline
Collectosaurus Rex


Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 426
Loc: Charm City
is it the red one on eBay?...

wait i just looked again, there are two on eBay now. is either one yours?


Edited by Mr. Smith Guesser (12/06/13 07:30 PM)
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#7233241 - 12/06/13 07:56 PM Re: Top 10 Rarest Roosevelt's with Full Torch and Full Band Designations [Re: Mr. Smith Guesser]
Six Mile Rick Offline
The Post-man always rings twice. Uhm... ring ring?


Registered: 01/23/11
Posts: 1519
Loc: Six Mile, S C
If you go into your previous journal that was not designated for chat boards you can delete it. That will leave room for others. \:\)
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