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Miller/Janson DD?
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257 posts in this topic

Maybe someone who knows more about this can refresh my memory -- as I recall, at some point, Miller started doing thumbnails for Daredevil, and Janson did pencils and inks on a separate piece of paper. As I recall, on later pages that Frank did pencil, he put some kind of mark on them, like his initials or something.

 

Did Frank touch this page? Or did he do a separate thumbnail that Janson then drew?

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fauctions%2Fpreview.asp%3Fcode%3D2013may%26itemtype%3D1%26Artist%3DFRANK%2520MILLER%23Item_965549&id=965549

 

It's incredibly cool -- just curious how the composition occurred.

 

Thanks!

 

Glen Gold

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Maybe someone who knows more about this can refresh my memory -- as I recall, at some point, Miller started doing thumbnails for Daredevil, and Janson did pencils and inks on a separate piece of paper. As I recall, on later pages that Frank did pencil, he put some kind of mark on them, like his initials or something.

 

Did Frank touch this page? Or did he do a separate thumbnail that Janson then drew?

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fauctions%2Fpreview.asp%3Fcode%3D2013may%26itemtype%3D1%26Artist%3DFRANK%2520MILLER%23Item_965549&id=965549

 

It's incredibly cool -- just curious how the composition occurred.

 

Thanks!

 

Glen Gold

 

It's my understanding that for about the last 10 issues of their run together, Frank was supplying Janson with 8 1/2 X 11 sheets of paper with breakdowns. So the layouts and compositions are Frank's but the lighting and actual work on the page is Klaus's.

 

I read that in an interview in the below circa 1986

 

61l57EhBe8L__SX285__zps65093e00.jpg

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I've heard, hearsay of course, all of the above mentioned as well as miller Did none of it except basically giving his approval, or directing the art through not much more than a conversation....but as I've said this is just hearing stories from a few different collectors and fans, nothing concrete. The artwork to me seems to read of miller so I would guess he had more input than a conversation. I haven't read the interview, but I would lean toward it being closer to the facts.

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I also had a friend who was shopping one of the death of Electra pages around and was told by a dealer that it was a Janson, NOT a miller.....only to have a different page from the same issue up on their site as a miller.....that could mean a few things,

1. That was the knowledge the dealer had at the time

2. The dealer was trying to get a great deal

3. Each artist had more involvement based on the particular page

 

 

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Googling "Janson Miller Daredevil thumbnails" gave me this. Here's Janson in 2012:

 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/02/23/frantic-as-a-cardiograph-scratching-out-the-lines-day-54-daredevil-172/#comment-885952

 

The money quote:

 

"Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185. And he was doing breakdowns on the boards for a handful of issues before that."

 

 

 

So it sounds like Frank did layouts on the same boards for a while, then starting with #179 (or #185?) he did them on separate, smaller sheets of paper.

 

 

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Lots of talk about it in this thread from a few years back - oddly enough in relation to a CLink auction of the cover from #190:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5133191&fpart=1

 

A number of people refer to a Janson quote from Back Issue #21 where he says that on issues #185-190 he worked from small layout roughs by Miller. But the pencils and inks on the boards were all Janson.

 

Here's a post from that thread that's particularly relevant to this discussion. It shows Miller's rough layouts for another interior splash from #190, and Janson's final art:

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=5133191

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You'll notice on that splash from #190, it says that Miller is "storyteller", while Janson is credited as "Penciller, Inker, Colorist".

 

Ummm... I think that clears it up, doesn't it?

 

Are those the credits that appeared in the published book?

 

 

Finally, here's how Heritage listed the CLink page when they auctioned it last year. They credited Miller with "breakdowns":

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7059&lotIdNo=122003

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Sometimes I think we get too hung up on who did what. Comics in general are a collaborative creative process that ends up as what is really nothing more than a piece of production art.

 

I really like this page regardless of who did what and when, and it was the culmination of a historic run . . .

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As lovely as this page is (and Janson was a fine comic artist in his own right), when the difference in selling price for a Miller and a Janson page can be in the thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars, then full disclosure is important.

 

If you're paying for a Miller, you should be confident that you're getting a Miller.

 

No different than if you're buying fine art. If it's being represented as a work by a specific artist, then you expect that artist's brush to have touched the canvas, and not his/her assistant or intern.

 

I'm blanking right now, but I recall allegations that there was at least one surrealist artist who, in his later years, had assistants do his artwork and he simply signed the finished pieces. Those later pieces now sell for a fraction of his authenticated artwork, and rightly so.

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Maybe someone who knows more about this can refresh my memory -- as I recall, at some point, Miller started doing thumbnails for Daredevil, and Janson did pencils and inks on a separate piece of paper. As I recall, on later pages that Frank did pencil, he put some kind of mark on them, like his initials or something.

 

Did Frank touch this page? Or did he do a separate thumbnail that Janson then drew?

 

http://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2Fauctions%2Fpreview.asp%3Fcode%3D2013may%26itemtype%3D1%26Artist%3DFRANK%2520MILLER%23Item_965549&id=965549

 

It's incredibly cool -- just curious how the composition occurred.

 

Thanks!

 

Glen Gold

 

From 'BACK ISSUE #21"

 

Daredevil #158-172

Tight Miller drawings (he also spots blacks i.e. indicated where black should and should not go), Janson inks.

 

Daredevil #173-184

Looser Miller pencils, Janson inks and spots blacks. 179 Janson starts colouring as well.

 

Daredevil #185-190

Miller layouts on small sheets of paper. Janson draws, inks and colours.

 

And then, 191 was Miller again on pencils.

 

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Miller layouts on 8 1/2 x 11 paper.

Janson light box the layouts to comic art board and inks said comic art board

I had sold this entire issue for Janson back in the day.

Since Miller did not actually put pencils to the board, Janson got all the art.

 

Mitch I.

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Sometimes I think we get too hung up on who did what. Comics in general are a collaborative creative process that ends up as what is really nothing more than a piece of production art.

 

I really like this page regardless of who did what and when, and it was the culmination of a historic run . . .

 

Sure, but DID MILLER ! TOUCH ! THE ! PAGE ! DID HE TOUCH IT! ! ! ! ! ! ! :baiting:

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Miller layouts on 8 1/2 x 11 paper.

Janson light box the layouts to comic art board and inks said comic art board

I had sold this entire issue for Janson back in the day.

Since Miller did not actually put pencils to the board, Janson got all the art.

 

Mitch I.

 

 

 

Boom.

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From what I remember, the exception to the statements are with Daredevil #183, where the original story "Child's Play" (the then controversial angel dust drug issue) was slated to be released as Daredevil #167, but ended up being shelved.

 

So, if you look at the original artwork for Daredevil #183, some (not sure if all) of the pages actually say Daredevil #167.

 

The facts that I'm missing and am curious to know more about is, was "Child's Play" originally slated for Daredevil #167, presented/released as Daredevil #183 (which then continued to #184, a 2 part story)? Or was the original "Child's Play" (Daredevil #167) re-worked, being re-written, as I speculate (then adding "The Punisher") so that it was possibly spread from a single story (as the original #167) into a two part story (released as #183 - 184) with some original art by Frank Miller, and then additional pages which were done to add to the tale, but fall into the "looser Miller pencils" work.

 

 

Glen Gold

 

 

 

Daredevil #173-184

Looser Miller pencils, Janson inks and spots blacks. 179 Janson starts colouring as well.

 

 

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Googling "Janson Miller Daredevil thumbnails" gave me this. Here's Janson in 2012:

 

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2012/02/23/frantic-as-a-cardiograph-scratching-out-the-lines-day-54-daredevil-172/#comment-885952

 

The money quote:

 

"Just to set the record straight, though, Frank went to 8 and a half inch by 11 inch breakdowns on issue #179, not #185. And he was doing breakdowns on the boards for a handful of issues before that."

 

 

 

So it sounds like Frank did layouts on the same boards for a while, then starting with #179 (or #185?) he did them on separate, smaller sheets of paper.

 

 

 

The Daredevil #181 title splash credits "Story & Art" to Miller and "Finished Art & Colors" to Janson.

 

http://comics.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7063&lotNo=92224

 

If what Klaus Janson is saying above is true, then Daredevil #181 is one of the issues that Frank Miller created layouts on smaller 8 1/2 x 11 pieces of paper. I find it very interesting that all original art for DD #181 was penciled by Janson only, and Miller never actually touched the art boards for this important issue.

 

 

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I'd argue that even if Miller didn't touch the page, and assuming he did the thumbnail layouts, you are getting a Miller. Frank Lloyd Wright might not have hammered as single nail, but his signature is all over his houses.

 

As I said before, comic art is a collaborative process, and the interplay between all the parts were merely a means to an end, the production art. Can't really analogize to fine art.

 

 

As lovely as this page is (and Janson was a fine comic artist in his own right), when the difference in selling price for a Miller and a Janson page can be in the thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars, then full disclosure is important.

 

If you're paying for a Miller, you should be confident that you're getting a Miller.

 

No different than if you're buying fine art. If it's being represented as a work by a specific artist, then you expect that artist's brush to have touched the canvas, and not his/her assistant or intern.

 

I'm blanking right now, but I recall allegations that there was at least one surrealist artist who, in his later years, had assistants do his artwork and he simply signed the finished pieces. Those later pieces now sell for a fraction of his authenticated artwork, and rightly so.

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