PROBATION DISCUSSIONS

21 21

I think CGC should sell butthurt in a can.

It would make millions, increase profit margin, and decrease grading wait time...

I think CGC should sell butthurt in a can.

 

It would make millions, increase profit margin, and decrease grading wait time...

They could design the can with a combination lock, requiring you to call for the "combo notes" at an extra cost!

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5592220&fpart=1

Might be fun to buy up all the books in Brent's last sales thread

Here are the rules for removal from the Probation List.

 

4) Removal From The PL

 

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

It seems to me that these rules are insufficient and need to be modified.

 

1) 100% of the power to remove the accused from the PL lies with the accuser(s). If the accuser chooses not to request removal, the accused stays on the list. That is the rule? This makes no sense to me. There should be a method for the accused to get off the list if an honest attempt to rectify the situation is made.

 

2) What does "satisfaction" mean? This is too nebulous. Someone might receive restitution, but still not be satisfied for various reasons.

 

3) Why is there no time limit for automatically being nominated to the HOS? Issues should be resolved quickly. Waiting months or even longer seems to defeat the purpose of a PL.

 

So, I guess my point is, why not modify the rules to reflect reality, rather than constantly having to discuss what should and should not be done because the rules are insufficient and unclear?

 

Again, I agree with this 100%. As I had mentioned earlier when I was trying to phrase the collected opinions on the PL Rules I was not expecting that boardies would take another boardie hostage after they tried to make amends.

 

I think this simple modification to the rules (in blue) would solve all these problems.

 

What do you think?

 

4) Removal From The PL

 

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

d) If a reasonable attempt to satisfy and provide full restitution to the accuser(s) has been made, and the accuser(s) is either silent or unwilling to allow the accused to be removed from the PL, the accused may request to be removed from the PL by majority vote.

 

e) If no attempt is made by the accused to satisfy and provide full restitution to the accuser(s) within 30 days, the accused will automatically be subject to a HOS nomination vote.

 

I think D looks good.

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5592220&fpart=1

 

Might be fun to buy up all the books in Brent's last sales thread

Here are the rules for removal from the Probation List.

 

4) Removal From The PL

 

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

It seems to me that these rules are insufficient and need to be modified.

 

1) 100% of the power to remove the accused from the PL lies with the accuser(s). If the accuser chooses not to request removal, the accused stays on the list. That is the rule? This makes no sense to me. There should be a method for the accused to get off the list if an honest attempt to rectify the situation is made.

 

2) What does "satisfaction" mean? This is too nebulous. Someone might receive restitution, but still not be satisfied for various reasons.

 

3) Why is there no time limit for automatically being nominated to the HOS? Issues should be resolved quickly. Waiting months or even longer seems to defeat the purpose of a PL.

 

So, I guess my point is, why not modify the rules to reflect reality, rather than constantly having to discuss what should and should not be done because the rules are insufficient and unclear?

 

Again, I agree with this 100%. As I had mentioned earlier when I was trying to phrase the collected opinions on the PL Rules I was not expecting that boardies would take another boardie hostage after they tried to make amends.

 

I think this simple modification to the rules (in blue) would solve all these problems.

 

What do you think?

 

4) Removal From The PL

 

a) If the accuser requests the accused be removed form the PL, the accused will be removed.

 

b) If the accused makes full restitution to the satisfaction of the accuser, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

c) If multiple accusers are involved, and full restitution is satisfactorily made to all accusers, the accused will be removed from the PL.

 

d) If a reasonable attempt to satisfy and provide full restitution to the accuser(s) has been made, and the accuser(s) is either silent or unwilling to allow the accused to be removed from the PL, the accused may request to be removed from the PL by majority vote.

 

e) If no attempt is made by the accused to satisfy and provide full restitution to the accuser(s) within 30 days, the accused will automatically be subject to a HOS nomination vote.

 

I think D looks good.

 

At the very least it should take a hell of a lot more than 51% to get off the list should it come to a vote.

There would have to be a time limit on the vote too. Not all board members come on here on a daily or even weekly basis.

Also, who decides what is "reasonable"? the person on the list?

I've noticed that two defense attorneys...both of whom I admire greatly...are arguing for clemency...

We need a prosecutor as well;)

Actually, Richard said it perfectly. It's not actually too easy to wind up on this list, you really kind of have to work on it...except in very rare circumstances.

With Brent's permission, I'll send a group PM to the people who have not responded, but I am going to wait till Monday.

Also, who decides what is "reasonable"? the person on the list?

Also, who decides what is "reasonable"? the person on the list?

I guess the vote would determine if the offered restitution is reasonable.

I'd call free books at the cost of shipping reasonable, but that's me. I didn't buy from him, so I've got nothing in this.

But, bottom line is that this is up to the buyers. The rest of us can only spectate. If they decide to let him off, so be it. If it happens again, he'll be back for PL nomination, and after this long winded debate, and I'm betting they will crucify him next time.

As for the 51% question, is there a precedent for a situation like this?

I made a suggestion to Sharon via PM that maybe offenders could be put on a 3 or 6 month waiting time after resolution/resolution offered before being taken off the list or they could voluntarily agree to not put on any sales threads for 3 or 6 months after resolution/resolution offered.

 

I don't think boardies should be able to keep other boardies on the probation list. I'm not saying it's the case in this case, but if one boardie bears a grudge, it can be leveraged on the probation list forever. That is not just.

 

And that gets at the heart of it.

 

Should a boardie be allowed to keep someone on the probation list out of anger even after they've done their best to fix the problem?

 

 

They should not.

 

In any and all situations, or in this particular instance?

 

So if, for arguements sake, I rip off a buyer and send a different book or take PayPal personal and don't send the book, the boardie I ripped off should be forced to accept, if and when I attempt to make amends? And if they choose not to, the perpetrator should be removed anyway?

 

It undermines the entire spirit of the list. It's not the fault of the wronged party for not agreeing to remove the individual, it's the fault of the individual who acted in whatever manner that landed them on the PL in the first place.

Am I missing something here? If you think someone's behaved so badly that they should never be forgiven, or be allowed to make amends, then put them in the HoS. The PL is meant to be temporary.

 

I agree here. It is why it is called a PROBATION list. The folks there are on Probation and given the opportunity to make amends.

 

Exactly. If we consider them incorrigible they go into the HOS. The probation list was designed to pressure people to complete transactions and warn boardies about them.

 

I just received a PM from a member asking what to do with a Megacon issue. They are pretty new and I directed them here and to the PL list where Megacon has been added.

 

Personally I think Megacon should be on the HOS. Especially as they were a banned user who came back under a different name.

+1

Megacon was also asking people to use Paypal personal.

Thats just being an utter person_who_is_obnoxiously_self-impressed as even while selling,it shows he had no intention of ever sending the books out.

Hang the B'stard!

Or HOS.

Whichevers cheaper.

 

My guess is, we could have a vote...

one vote for off the list once the books are received

1. no one lost any money except for the seller

2. seller has apologized

3. seller is trying to make amends

4. enjoy Communication Breakdown, link to follow

linky

I made a suggestion to Sharon via PM that maybe offenders could be put on a 3 or 6 month waiting time after resolution/resolution offered before being taken off the list or they could voluntarily agree to not put on any sales threads for 3 or 6 months after resolution/resolution offered.

 

I don't think boardies should be able to keep other boardies on the probation list. I'm not saying it's the case in this case, but if one boardie bears a grudge, it can be leveraged on the probation list forever. That is not just.

 

And that gets at the heart of it.

 

Should a boardie be allowed to keep someone on the probation list out of anger even after they've done their best to fix the problem?

 

 

They should not.

 

In any and all situations, or in this particular instance?

 

So if, for arguements sake, I rip off a buyer and send a different book or take PayPal personal and don't send the book, the boardie I ripped off should be forced to accept, if and when I attempt to make amends? And if they choose not to, the perpetrator should be removed anyway?

 

It undermines the entire spirit of the list. It's not the fault of the wronged party for not agreeing to remove the individual, it's the fault of the individual who acted in whatever manner that landed them on the PL in the first place.

Am I missing something here? If you think someone's behaved so badly that they should never be forgiven, or be allowed to make amends, then put them in the HoS. The PL is meant to be temporary.

 

I agree here. It is why it is called a PROBATION list. The folks there are on Probation and given the opportunity to make amends.

 

Exactly. If we consider them incorrigible they go into the HOS. The probation list was designed to pressure people to complete transactions and warn boardies about them.

 

I just received a PM from a member asking what to do with a Megacon issue. They are pretty new and I directed them here and to the PL list where Megacon has been added.

 

Personally I think Megacon should be on the HOS. Especially as they were a banned user who came back under a different name.

I second that motion. No use for people like that.

So I guess I out of luck? What are my options? Does anyone know if Paypal can get my money?

 

I think your post got lost in the shuffle. If you paid with a charge card through Paypal, I would call them first and dispute the charge. Else, just file a claim with Paypal asap.

Good luck!

Not sure whether I'm following the Probation list rule to a tee but here goes.

I'm submitting Vacantpassenger for inclusion onto the Probation list. In September I purchased a Daredevil 181 slab cgc'd at a 9.4 for 35 dollars plus shipping. When I received the slab, it arrived in a postal service envelope and was placed in between cardboard with bubblewrap(I think that everyother slab that I've purchased before and after that transaction was packed in a box. The slab was cracked in several places. I informed Vacantpassenger of this and the following was his response:

"I'm extremely sorry to hear that. It was most certainly not shipped that way.

Please take a high res photo for me with the cracks and cert # visible. I have never had a problem with the manner in which I ship before.

Thanks for the heads up, this will be resolved."

With the help of a board buddy I sent pics of the damaged slab to vacantpassenger.

This was his response and my response:

#3686372 - 09/12/12 12:18 AM Re: Dd 181

vacantpassenger vacantpassenger

Collectosaurus Rex

"Thanks for getting those pics to me!

Again, my apologies, I've never had a problem with any of my comic shipments before. I'm reeeeeeeally beginning to hate the USPS.

I know it's a sh!tty situation, but here are some resolutions I can offer you:

1) The book itself is technically still okay, it's just the casing that's cracked. However, obviously I'm a collector as well so I know it sucks to have book in a cracked case. So if you still want the book I can offer you a $12 refund. That's over 25% of your total purchase price as an apology for the situation. It will also cover CGCs ReHoldering fee if you want to have it redone

or

2) If you don't want the book because of the cracked case, which I understand, feel free to send it back and I will refund you your total money order purchase price.

No problems here, bud, only solutions!

So let me know, and again, my apologies."

#3688283 - 09/12/12 08:24 PM Re: Dd 181

Eddie A. Eddie A.

Learning the Ropes

Registered: 06/18/09

Posts: 19 Thx for getting back to me Michael.

I'd actually like to have it reholdered.

Thx again for working with me.

#3780492 - 10/28/12 04:18 PM Re: Dd 181

Eddie A. Eddie A.

Learning the Ropes

Registered: 06/18/09

Posts: 19 Hi,

It's been over a month since I heard from you regarding the refund. I know it's only $12 that we're talking about but as it stands this was a shoddy deal. If its problems you're having with mailing the refund you should communicate them to me.

Be notified that I will be lodging a complaint on the probie thread if you do not respond. Again, I don't want to do that so I hope you follow through on your end.

Top Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote

Unread By: vacantpassenger

I have not heard from vacantpassenger so here I am. Not banking on being made whole on this transaction and I know its only 12 bucks we're talking about but its the principle behind this. Anyway, I'll take the hit.

Apologies again if I am not following the rules correctly in lodging my complaint.

Not sure whether I'm following the Probation list rule to a tee but here goes.

 

I'm submitting Vacantpassenger for inclusion onto the Probation list. In September I purchased a Daredevil 181 slab cgc'd at a 9.4 for 35 dollars plus shipping. When I received the slab, it arrived in a postal service envelope and was placed in between cardboard with bubblewrap(I think that everyother slab that I've purchased before and after that transaction was packed in a box. The slab was cracked in several places. I informed Vacantpassenger of this and the following was his response:

 

"I'm extremely sorry to hear that. It was most certainly not shipped that way.

 

Please take a high res photo for me with the cracks and cert # visible. I have never had a problem with the manner in which I ship before.

 

Thanks for the heads up, this will be resolved."

 

With the help of a board buddy I sent pics of the damaged slab to vacantpassenger.

This was his response and my response:

 

 

#3686372 - 09/12/12 12:18 AM Re: Dd 181

vacantpassenger vacantpassenger

Collectosaurus Rex

 

 

"Thanks for getting those pics to me!

 

Again, my apologies, I've never had a problem with any of my comic shipments before. I'm reeeeeeeally beginning to hate the USPS.

 

I know it's a sh!tty situation, but here are some resolutions I can offer you:

 

1) The book itself is technically still okay, it's just the casing that's cracked. However, obviously I'm a collector as well so I know it sucks to have book in a cracked case. So if you still want the book I can offer you a $12 refund. That's over 25% of your total purchase price as an apology for the situation. It will also cover CGCs ReHoldering fee if you want to have it redone

 

or

 

2) If you don't want the book because of the cracked case, which I understand, feel free to send it back and I will refund you your total money order purchase price.

 

No problems here, bud, only solutions!

So let me know, and again, my apologies."

 

#3688283 - 09/12/12 08:24 PM Re: Dd 181

Eddie A. Eddie A.

Learning the Ropes

 

 

Registered: 06/18/09

Posts: 19 Thx for getting back to me Michael.

 

I'd actually like to have it reholdered.

 

 

Thx again for working with me.

 

#3780492 - 10/28/12 04:18 PM Re: Dd 181

Eddie A. Eddie A.

Learning the Ropes

 

 

Registered: 06/18/09

Posts: 19 Hi,

 

It's been over a month since I heard from you regarding the refund. I know it's only $12 that we're talking about but as it stands this was a shoddy deal. If its problems you're having with mailing the refund you should communicate them to me.

 

Be notified that I will be lodging a complaint on the probie thread if you do not respond. Again, I don't want to do that so I hope you follow through on your end.

 

Top Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote

Unread By: vacantpassenger

 

 

I have not heard from vacantpassenger so here I am. Not banking on being made whole on this transaction and I know its only 12 bucks we're talking about but its the principle behind this. Anyway, I'll take the hit.

 

Apologies again if I am not following the rules correctly in lodging my complaint.

Eddie, you did a better job than most in reporting the situation and PMing the offending party. Looking at vacantpassenger's posts it seems their last post here was 8/26.

I am adding them to the PL. If anyone objects please say so and why. I thank you.

Poll to put comicseekers AKA primeinvestibles AKA megacon on the HOS. I have put a 1 week cap on the poll. It should be long enough to determine this.

Not sure whether I'm following the Probation list rule to a tee but here goes.

 

I'm submitting Vacantpassenger for inclusion onto the Probation list. In September I purchased a Daredevil 181 slab cgc'd at a 9.4 for 35 dollars plus shipping. When I received the slab, it arrived in a postal service envelope and was placed in between cardboard with bubblewrap(I think that everyother slab that I've purchased before and after that transaction was packed in a box. The slab was cracked in several places. I informed Vacantpassenger of this and the following was his response:

 

"I'm extremely sorry to hear that. It was most certainly not shipped that way.

 

Please take a high res photo for me with the cracks and cert # visible. I have never had a problem with the manner in which I ship before.

 

Thanks for the heads up, this will be resolved."

 

With the help of a board buddy I sent pics of the damaged slab to vacantpassenger.

This was his response and my response:

 

 

#3686372 - 09/12/12 12:18 AM Re: Dd 181

vacantpassenger vacantpassenger

Collectosaurus Rex

 

 

"Thanks for getting those pics to me!

 

Again, my apologies, I've never had a problem with any of my comic shipments before. I'm reeeeeeeally beginning to hate the USPS.

 

I know it's a sh!tty situation, but here are some resolutions I can offer you:

 

1) The book itself is technically still okay, it's just the casing that's cracked. However, obviously I'm a collector as well so I know it sucks to have book in a cracked case. So if you still want the book I can offer you a $12 refund. That's over 25% of your total purchase price as an apology for the situation. It will also cover CGCs ReHoldering fee if you want to have it redone

 

or

 

2) If you don't want the book because of the cracked case, which I understand, feel free to send it back and I will refund you your total money order purchase price.

 

No problems here, bud, only solutions!

So let me know, and again, my apologies."

 

#3688283 - 09/12/12 08:24 PM Re: Dd 181

Eddie A. Eddie A.

Learning the Ropes

 

 

Registered: 06/18/09

Posts: 19 Thx for getting back to me Michael.

 

I'd actually like to have it reholdered.

 

 

Thx again for working with me.

 

#3780492 - 10/28/12 04:18 PM Re: Dd 181

Eddie A. Eddie A.

Learning the Ropes

 

 

Registered: 06/18/09

Posts: 19 Hi,

 

It's been over a month since I heard from you regarding the refund. I know it's only $12 that we're talking about but as it stands this was a shoddy deal. If its problems you're having with mailing the refund you should communicate them to me.

 

Be notified that I will be lodging a complaint on the probie thread if you do not respond. Again, I don't want to do that so I hope you follow through on your end.

 

Top Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote

Unread By: vacantpassenger

 

 

I have not heard from vacantpassenger so here I am. Not banking on being made whole on this transaction and I know its only 12 bucks we're talking about but its the principle behind this. Anyway, I'll take the hit.

 

Apologies again if I am not following the rules correctly in lodging my complaint.

 

Eddie, you did a better job than most in reporting the situation and PMing the offending party. Looking at vacantpassenger's posts it seems their last post here was 8/26.

 

I am adding them to the PL. If anyone objects please say so and why. I thank you.

It seems that you can add him to the list, but the seller really came across as apologetic and wanting the buyer to be completely satisfied here. It's just strange that he disappeared. That is unlikely due to the $12, so I think we'll see the seller pop in here once he's back on the boards. When the buyer's made whole, then his name should come off the list.

Andy

 

It seems that you can add him to the list, but the seller really came across as apologetic and wanting the buyer to be completely satisfied here. It's just strange that he disappeared. That is unlikely due to the $12, so I think we'll see the seller pop in here once he's back on the boards. When the buyer's made whole, then his name should come off the list.

 

Andy

I agree 100%. But until then the PL must be the PL. (we need a "sigh" emoticon.)