But would you agree that if there are before pics of the WM books where the ink is sharp, and then subsequently we have these pics of runny ink, that there is virtually no other explanation than a humid press for the change.
Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.
Just answer the question. It is a simple if-then question.
Could it be Sean, that certain inks are re-activated under high enough heat? This is another possible explanation.
That's what I originally hypothesized when I said that they might be oil based - heat will cause oil to run, but that could happen then in any environment including the trunk of a car.
Or it could be a combination of moisture and temperature - moisture causing fibres to loosen up and heat causing inks to run.
Again, we're all speculating at this point with only 1 data point on the graph.
#5703689 - 05/22/1201:16 PMRe: Q: Are CGC graders "addicted" to pressing?
[Re: joeypost]
seanfinghseanfingh You earn it. It's like MMA for nerds.
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Originally Posted By: joeypost
Originally Posted By: seanfingh
You would need food stamps to feed yourself.
Here is what you keep dodging:
Originally Posted By: seanfingh
But would you agree that if there are before pics of the WM books where the ink is sharp, and then subsequently we have these pics of runny ink, that there is virtually no other explanation than a humid press for the change.
Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.
Just answer the question. It is a simple if-then question.
Could it be Sean, that certain inks are re-activated under high enough heat? This is another possible explanation.
Absolutely. It could be any number of chemical/physical reactions. I just think the dancing around the fact that a press is by far the most likely culprit is silly. And anyone who presses books should look at it seriously to determine whether that may be an issue going forward, especially if one is having autographed books pressed from time to time.
I just think the dancing around the fact that a press is by far the most likely culprit is silly.
I don't think anybody is dancing around "the fact" - at this point it's not a fact yet. It's just one of a possible number of facts. I'd just like a little more meat in the discussion before it gets called a smoking gun.
But would you agree that if there are before pics of the WM books where the ink is sharp, and then subsequently we have these pics of runny ink, that there is virtually no other explanation than a humid press for the change.
Unless people were paying big bucks for the WM books to store them in a humidor or the Everglades.
Just answer the question. It is a simple if-then question.
Could it be Sean, that certain inks are re-activated under high enough heat? This is another possible explanation.
Absolutely. It could be any number of chemical/physical reactions. I just think the dancing around the fact that a press is by far the most likely culprit is silly. And anyone who presses books should look at it seriously to determine whether that may be an issue going forward, especially if one is having autographed books pressed from time to time.
Out of everyone involved in this discussion I think I can safely say I have worked on more SS books than anyone else. I have encountered books signed with pencil to white out. Each one is a challenge and has to be treated individually. This is regards to moisture levels, heat, pressure, ect. I can say that on some types of ink pens the ink does re-activate and can come off the book (this is very rare and only happens with certain colors). It usually winds up on the release paper. But, and this is where I stress the "but" I have never had inks spread out like these examples show.
Could they have been poor attempts to clean off the ink with solvents? Possible. Could heat (and yes, heat from any source) couse this? I am not a chemist and cannot say no, but I am not ruling it out of the realm of possibility.
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#5703732 - 05/22/1201:33 PMRe: Q: Are CGC graders "addicted" to pressing?
[Re: joeypost]
Ze-manZe-man I offend someone, on some level, somewhere
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Originally Posted By: joeypost
Could they have been poor attempts to clean off the ink with solvents? Possible.
This was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the posted links due to the inks placement on white only areas. They look not just like they bled a bit, but were actually minimized somewhat.
Especially the X-men, and Strange Tales.
And while this topic is interesting, the original reason for this thread was silly.
I'm outta here.
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#5703787 - 05/22/1201:54 PMRe: Q: Are CGC graders "addicted" to pressing?
[Re: Ze-man]
bomber-bobbomber-bob
I was posting here when you were in diapers.
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Originally Posted By: Ze-man
Originally Posted By: joeypost
Could they have been poor attempts to clean off the ink with solvents? Possible.
This was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the posted links due to the inks placement on white only areas. They look not just like they bled a bit, but were actually minimized somewhat.
Especially the X-men, and Strange Tales.
And while this topic is interesting, the original reason for this thread was silly.
I'm outta here.
I doubt anyone wanted to clean off the ink on the White Mountains ? I had the bleeding ink phenomena on a book after a press but maybe it bled in the heat of the mail truck. Look, just because pressing may be bad for some books does not make it a bad process. I don't understand why we can't point out some possible damage as the result of pressing without feeling aghast. There may be something to be learned here resulting in a better process .
#5703849 - 05/22/1202:13 PMRe: Q: Are CGC graders "addicted" to pressing?
[Re: bomber-bob]
Ze-manZe-man I offend someone, on some level, somewhere
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Originally Posted By: bomber-bob
Originally Posted By: Ze-man
Originally Posted By: joeypost
Could they have been poor attempts to clean off the ink with solvents? Possible.
This was the first thing that came to mind when I saw the posted links due to the inks placement on white only areas. They look not just like they bled a bit, but were actually minimized somewhat.
Especially the X-men, and Strange Tales.
And while this topic is interesting, the original reason for this thread was silly.
I'm outta here.
I doubt anyone wanted to clean off the ink on the White Mountains ? I had the bleeding ink phenomena on a book after a press but maybe it bled in the heat of the mail truck. Look, just because pressing may be bad for some books does not make it a bad process. I don't understand why we can't point out some possible damage as the result of pressing without feeling aghast. There may be something to be learned here resulting in a better process .
Since you quoted me, I wanted to say that I have no problem with people discussing any aspect of inks running as a result from being pressed. Properly, or improperly.
Certain pen inks may very well melt(and seep into the cover, or be pulled up on release paper) under even a slight increase in temp, or humidity. I was just making comments based on what was provided(which is very little I might add)
I would defer to what Joey says because he deals with this everyday. I do next to no pressing anymore, all my comments were more geared to how inks react when restoring a book.
If this type of discussion helps minimize people pressing books at too high a temp, or pressure then I am all for it.
I just felt Divads reason for making this thread was beyond silly.
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I thought the answer was obvious: yes, if you have before and after pics then it would be difficult to blame it on something else.
Gave you before and after pics of an example of pressing causing a staple to become slightly impacted. My book originally purchased raw, my before and after scans, results clear to everyone. When I pointed out the large proportion of Curator FFs with slightly impacted staples, you and some other folks denied that pressing could cause such a thing. I sent a couple of books to be pressed by one of the very best guys in the biz, and posted one of the results here to settle the matter.
How it happens is simple: when unpressed, the book had some air contained inside it, and the top cover was not completely horizontally flat, but rather slightly higher in the middle than at the spine and outer edges. This is how comics rolled onto the market after printing. Pressing squeezes out the air and flattens the cover - the paper moves a tiny bit in relation to a staple, and slides past it, creating a slightly impacted staple. A second contributing factor is the swelling of the paper as it is humidifed and heated during the pressing process.
As for my bias, you're grasping at straws. I've had books from my collection pressed and purchased books known to have been pressed, so its plain I'm not categorically opposed to it. You, on the other hand, have pressing as an essential component of the business model you use to make a living, so between the two of us it's you who have a much more vested stake in any discussion of the potential downsides to pressing.
I thought the answer was obvious: yes, if you have before and after pics then it would be difficult to blame it on something else.
Gave you before and after pics of an example of pressing causing a staple to become slightly impacted. My book originally purchased raw, my before and after scans, results clear to everyone. When I pointed out the large proportion of Curator FFs with slightly impacted staples, you and some other folks doubted that pressing could cause such a thing. I sent a couple of books to be pressed by one of the very best guys in the biz, and posted the results here to settle the matter.
How it happens is simple: when unpressed, the book had some air contained inside it, and the top cover was not completely horizontally flat, but rather slightly higher in the middle than at the spine and outer edges. This is how comics rolled onto the market after printing. Pressing squeezes out the air and flattens the cover - the paper moves a tiny bit in relation to a staple, and slides past it, creating a slightly impacted staple. A second contributing factor is the swelling of the paper as it is humidifed and heated during the pressing process.
You're moving the goal posts in the discussion.
We were specifically talking about inks wicking during the pressing process, not staples moving when I asked for before and after pics.
You decided to go off on a tangent and start posting pics of staples.
Originally Posted By: namisgr
As for my bias, you're grasping. I've had books from my collection pressed and purchased books known to have been pressed, so its plain I'm not categorically opposed to it. You, on the other hand, have pressing as an essential component of the business model you use to make a living, so between the two of us it's you who have a much more vested stake in any discussion of the potential downsides to pressing.
What I have a vested stake in (and this is true for every discussion whether it's pressing, health, religion or just hot girls) is alarming people about the negative effects of something with very little substance behind the alarm.
Since I've probably seen, handled or had pressed enough books to have an idea of what is involved I'm going to say that your 1 example is not enough to convince me.
And after all that, Divad still hasn't chimed in to clarify exactly why he started this thread in the first place. I'm still in the dark about what he meant by "addicted to pressing".
The discussion of staple impaction is precisely on topic. I think even slightly impacted staples detract from the appeal and the grade of an otherwise ultra high grade comic, and should be considered minor defects by CGC. The example I showed was graded by CGC as a 9.6 before the pressing and staple impaction, and 9.6 after, so the 'damage' produced by the pressing does not appear to have been factored into the CGC grade. I felt that several of the Curator FFs grades were gifts in that the 9.6 grade level should not suffer from staple impaction.
Who knows what Divad intended by starting the thread, but despite that it can still be a place for a new and potentially interesting dialog.
