#5653420 - 05/04/1208:34 PMRe: If you are an expert grader of one series, you can be the same with other series
[Re: Walkerfan]
johncurlisjohncurlis
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Registered: 03/31/11
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Originally Posted By: Walkerfan
You MAY become an expert in a second or maybe even a third series but across all boards and all series like an 'omni-grader'--there's just no way---just too many subtle nuances and characteristics to master. It's like asking an athlete to excel in ALL sports---won't happen.
Yep, like asking Jim Thorpe....... Everything is possible.
#5653460 - 05/04/1208:53 PMRe: If you are an expert grader of one series, you can be the same with other series
[Re: johncurlis]
WalkerfanWalkerfan TOTAL NEWBIE, makes no sense and seems very paradoxical and counter-intuitive.
Is it a very lame attempt at sarcastic humor??
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Registered: 10/07/09
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Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: johncurlis
Originally Posted By: Walkerfan
You MAY become an expert in a second or maybe even a third series but across all boards and all series like an 'omni-grader'--there's just no way---just too many subtle nuances and characteristics to master. It's like asking an athlete to excel in ALL sports---won't happen.
Yep, like asking Jim Thorpe....... Everything is possible.
Respectfully, of course. John Curlis
Or Michael Jordan. He was never quite the same baseball player that he was the basketball player on the court.
Only other example that I can think of is Bo Jackson who played baseball AND football but that is only two sports and there are 100's of coin series, as I agreed that you may master up to 2 or even 3. Maybe not the perfect analogy but close.
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I'm a decent grader of what I think the two major TPG's will slab the coins at in two series. MJ
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Originally Posted By: MarkFeld
Do you agree or disagree? Either way, why?
i agree!!
if YOU meet these parameters
good tools
1---- have a great magnifying glass for example a 3-6-9x zeiss and a 20x bausch and lomp hastings triplet
10 20+ years experience
2---- having a true interest in the series not only for technical parameters but a healthly interest in the series in terms of history minting techniques of the particular series and with much study and looking at coins in all different venues be it slabbed and/or raw also after looking for some years at many different examples you understand the current market for eye appeal and what particular overall "look" makes the coin great to other collectors and most importantly to yourself and of course talkintg to and asking lots of questions to many other interested collectors/dealers in this coin area also extensively studying all the coin reference books you can on the specific subject
having a great memory in which you can recall most all of the coins you have seen in 5 10 20++ years as a good visual reference
3---- then yes if you are an expert in one series after doing all of the above not that you will be but you got a GREAT chance (but ever a sure thing) of being an expert in another series you have chosen to do all of the above
good luck
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I concur with most of what you guys have said except: whether is pertains to market grading gold which is frankly a mess, it applies both double standard grading and and to the time period when graded. These grouping of coins needs some serious cleanup just based on a sampling of small denomination (up to $3) gold coins for sale recently in the Chicago sale. Not picking on the auctioneer but the variability, within grade, for AU55 through MS62 was interesting, to say the least.
These AU55 to MS63 gold coins are often graded all over the map. Depending on whether the coin is a "run over by the mint truck" (strictly uncirculated) MS62 or an AU58 slider that is really nice coin the had a mite of cabinet friction on the high points. In some cases like this both are graded MS62, which would you rather have?
This issue here is one of mixing inoculated coins and sliders and calling them the same and could be simply resolved by designating these grades (for example) as either AU61or MS61 which would immediately inform the potential buyer at least as to whether the coin is circulated and has wear or not. Market Grading created this confusion and the rest is the reality of living with this and its unavoidable double standard.
I was reading about a noted Charlotte dollar gold coin the other day which went from a AU55 (I think) holder into an MS65 (finest known) holder in one felled swoop! This does not bode well for TPG grading skills reflecting the reality of missing the grade by 10 grading points! Plus, this was the exact same coin, not a different series.
#5654420 - 05/05/1210:24 AMRe: If you are an expert grader of one series, you can be the same with other series
[Re: Oldtrader3]
johncurlisjohncurlis
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Originally Posted By: Oldtrader3
I concur with most of what you guys have said except: whether is pertains to market grading gold which is frankly a mess, it applies both double standard grading and and to the time period when graded. These grouping of coins needs some serious cleanup just based on a sampling of small denomination (up to $3) gold coins for sale recently in the Chicago sale. Not picking on the auctioneer but the variability, within grade, for AU55 through MS62 was interesting, to say the least.
These AU55 to MS63 gold coins are often graded all over the map. Depending on whether the coin is a "run over by the mint truck" (strictly uncirculated) MS62 or an AU58 slider that is really nice coin the had a mite of cabinet friction on the high points. In some cases like this both are graded MS62, which would you rather have?
This issue here is one of mixing inoculated coins and sliders and calling them the same and could be simply resolved by designating these grades (for example) as either AU61or MS61 which would immediately inform the potential buyer at least as to whether the coin is circulated and has wear or not. Market Grading created this confusion and the rest is the reality of living with this and its unavoidable double standard.
I was reading about a noted Charlotte dollar gold coin the other day which went from a AU55 (I think) holder into an MS65 (finest known) holder in one felled swoop! This does not bode well for TPG grading skills reflecting the reality of missing the grade by 10 grading points! Plus, this was the exact same coin, not a different series.
Your thoughts tend to concur that the correct term is "expert opinion grading", and not "expert grading", and that TPGs are the proof of the correct term.
Would you also concur that the logical conclusion is (assuming the academic requirement is acheived) that until vision is exactly the same for all that grade, then an "expert opinion" is not possible, and is only, and always will be, an opinion?
Does this lead to a conclusion that the present economic aspects of numismatics ( read market grading) is a scam?
I will try to address the various questions and comments which have been posted, and I will start with Mr. Curlis, who, like usual, forces me to think.
Even though some opinions are far more knowledgeable and expert than others, I believe it's a given that grading is (merely) an opinion. Therefore, I think it would be redundant to use your suggested term "expert opinion grading", as opposed to "expert grading".
"...Does this lead to a conclusion that the present economic aspects of numismatics (read market grading) is a scam?"
While harshly phrased, I think that this is close to the mark. The current state of professional grading is not one that is close to being objective. I note the following: 1. There are many coins that have been graded simply because they have 17xx dates or are scarce varieties, but almost certainly would not have been graded if they were deemed 'common.' 2. When technically AU coins with unusual eye appeal began to be bumped into MS grades, then the barn door was opened for a lot of foolishness. I have seen numerous early federal coins in slabs with low-MS grades---likely graded when the coin market was in better shape---that would grade AU55-58 today (and be priced accordingly). My own opinion of why this occurred is that this lessened buyer price resistance---it's easier to quote a high price for a coin to a prospective buyer if it is in a slab with a MS grade. This sort of thing tends to happen when the coin market is roaring. In a bear market, buyers of these market-graded coins frequently find themselves upside-down financially. 3. The color fad has also contributed to the problem, with both major services factoring eye appeal (particularly colorful toning) into the grade. This has been a major encouragement to coin doctors. 4. Liner coins, ones straddling two grade increments, tend to receive grades that are based on cost considerations. If the coin in the higher grade is worth 10x what it would bring in the lower grade, there is a tendency to give it the lower grade. Why? Financial liability. 5. We now have + grades. Do I have to say any more?
One final point. The element of manipulation in the business end of the hobby is pervasive, and the people at the bottom of this food chain (average collectors) are dearly paying for this. Not TPGs, auction houses, or dealers. Collectors who don't want to wind up in this group need to spend a lot of time learning how to grade, price, evaluate liquidity, and evaluate selling venues for their coins.
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I like MJ's answer -- I feel I can grade Buffalos and Walkers pretty well at this point because I have looked at so many of them over the years. As Physics alluded to, I think with some study and looking at a good bunch of coins, I could become pretty good at SLQs or shield nickels. But jumping across to gold or copper would require a lot of time and effort that I don't foresee. I like looking at gold and copper coins but have almost no clue about them.
#5654643 - 05/05/1212:42 PMRe: If you are an expert grader of one series, you can be the same with other series
[Re: Arizonadesertrat]
johncurlisjohncurlis
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Registered: 03/31/11
Posts: 2588
Originally Posted By: Arizonadesertrat
"...Does this lead to a conclusion that the present economic aspects of numismatics (read market grading) is a scam?"
While harshly phrased, I think that this is close to the mark. The current state of professional grading is not one that is close to being objective. I note the following: 1. There are many coins that have been graded simply because they have 17xx dates or are scarce varieties, but almost certainly would not have been graded if they were deemed 'common.' 2. When technically AU coins with unusual eye appeal began to be bumped into MS grades, then the barn door was opened for a lot of foolishness. I have seen numerous early federal coins in slabs with low-MS grades---likely graded when the coin market was in better shape---that would grade AU55-58 today (and be priced accordingly). My own opinion of why this occurred is that this lessened buyer price resistance---it's easier to quote a high price for a coin to a prospective buyer if it is in a slab with a MS grade. This sort of thing tends to happen when the coin market is roaring. In a bear market, buyers of these market-graded coins frequently find themselves upside-down financially. 3. The color fad has also contributed to the problem, with both major services factoring eye appeal (particularly colorful toning) into the grade. This has been a major encouragement to coin doctors. 4. Liner coins, ones straddling two grade increments, tend to receive grades that are based on cost considerations. If the coin in the higher grade is worth 10x what it would bring in the lower grade, there is a tendency to give it the lower grade. Why? Financial liability. 5. We now have + grades. Do I have to say any more?
One final point. The element of manipulation in the business end of the hobby is pervasive, and the people at the bottom of this food chain (average collectors) are dearly paying for this. Not TPGs, auction houses, or dealers. Collectors who don't want to wind up in this group need to spend a lot of time learning how to grade, price, evaluate liquidity, and evaluate selling venues for their coins.
Thank You for your thoughts.
Since a scam is simply a fraudulent scheme, and is slang for same,( not being condescending), it is, to me, the only word to correctly apply for the question presented. Harshness, or perception of same, is and was not intended.
A posit was and is intended, for comment and thought.
Concerning the kind reply from Mr. Feld, I will concur with the redundant nature of the phrase, as it applies to knowledgeable participants only.
But (blah blah), unfortunately, a significant percentage of numismatic participants believe (and continue to do so) in the TPG expert grading interpretation, and do not mentally insert the word "opinion" as a caveat, because they have been educated in the economic pursuit of the hobby, by the numismatic media and TPGs, and auction venues. Any coin show, on any given day will yield the proof of this statement, if one listens to the conversations between collectors, or collectors and dealers, etc.
While not equivalent to Wall Street scams, the economic market grading scenario certainly has similar foundations that should be contemplated and addressed.
I have never read any major numismatic media presentation that adequately does so, and I try to read all I can.
Consider this an OMG position (no, not what you think. I mean "Occupy Market Grading").
What do I know? I still buy Johnny Quest comics when I find them at a yard sale, so I can READ them, not sell them.
