You should not take Ebay to court over their BS rules but talk to the CEO's of ANACS and ICG and hope that they will go after Ebay for Fair Trade violations.
-Dave
What fair trade violations would you be speaking of? I don't see how anyone could recover against eBay for its new policy. EBay provides eBay buyer protection and if they have liability, isn't it rational to limit their liability? While it is true that there are good coins in ANACS and ICG coins, they have had issues lately, and I understand eBay's categorical rule against them.
P.S. If eBay cannot prohibit ANACS and ICG coins from being listed in this manner, how can it eliminate PCI, SEGS, etc? There was obviously a judgment call there too, and because the line was pushed a little too far for you personally, you think they should be sued by ANACS and ICG?
I might have mentioned the wrong thing, but what I meant was that ANACS, ICG, PCI and SEGS should dig into why Ebay makes NGC and PCGS "VIP". Setting aside personal opinions about the TPG's, NGC and PCGS are not the only TPG's in business and Ebay should recognize all of them equally. Also, my comment had nothing to really do with Ebay buyer protection. You made me remember when I had several coins listed on Ebay that were graded by PCI. Someone on Ebay messaged me that I cannot put PCI in the item description because Ebay does not recognize them. This guy didn't even bid on anything. I told him that even though Ebay does not recognize PCI, that is who is on the slab and I am following ebay seller guidelines by providing accurate item info and description.
The line that was pushed was not by Ebay, it was Paypal. I used my experience with that ordeal to comment on the person who said taking ebay to court wont work, they have tons of lawyers. I am not saying that it would work, I doubt one person can take on ebay's legal team about their policies. I went after Paypal because even though their policy states they reserve the right to do this or that with any account, I was able to prove that what Paypal did to me was against the law because their company does not hold the proper crudentials to remove funds from someones account if they originated from a person to person transaction. Nor did they provide me with documents that I asked for and that they are supposed to supply to me when I demand them.
Non the less, I dissagree with this new Ebay rule, and I dissagree with many other rules they have.
-Dave
All the services in the bluesheet (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, SEGS, PCI, ICG) have their own standards, their own pricing. based on actual or perceived quality. As long as there is no misrepresentation of value, and the items are properly described, buying coins from ANY of these 6 services is far safer than buying any raw coins. Even the Star Grading Service slabs with the gold foil seals were decent modern Unc coins from Mint sets, all deemed MS70, (actually about MS64 to MS66 from the several dozen I have seen) but these only sold for a few dollars, their fair market value. Yet for the past 5 years, ebay's priority was stopping the listings of "unapproved slabs" while allowing millions of dangerous fake raw coins from China into the US Numismatic market, because the sellers photoshopped the word "replica" or "copy" on the images and eBay did nothing for 5 years, despite reports that these fake coins were being sent without any markings indicating they were "replicas."
Well if all the TPG's have different grading standards, why doesn't someone or some company make something to standardize grading. That way, all the TPG's will certify coins with the same grades. I have heard many bad things about PCGS and NGC about how they grade coins. A dealer told me that NGC will ask the dealer if the dealer wants his ASE PF69 or PF70 for a small extra fee. I sent several coins into NGC, most of them came back as I expected but 2 coins had grades that were 100% incorrect. One of them was 1955 Franklin half, it was in my Grandfathers Dansco album since 1958, NGC graded it Brilliant uncirculated CLEANED. I Knew they were wrong but to make sure, I broke it out of the holder, sent it back and it came back MS67.
I would rather have coins graded by ANACS over anyother TPG. But Ebay's new rule gives me one more reason to stop doing business on there.
-Dave
_________________________
"A failed attempt is better than never making the attempt at all." "Don't think..Just Double Tap."
If an online Auction House who has very little knowledge of coins makes you shy away from a coin then maybe you should rethink your collecting habits as a whole.
All this talk about what ebay is going to do is total BS if you ask me. I could care less what Ebay will do as my collecting habits will not change at all. I collect what I like.I do not care what holder it is in or what grade is on it. If I like the coin I buy it. Weather it is in SGS, PCGS, NGC or ANACS. Yes I have bought coins in just about every holder and low and behold 99% of them have been to my liking when I got them in hand. The online purchases that is. The in hand purchases are that much better for me. I have no shame in buying from a pawn shop, ebay, Auction House, coin shop, coin show, or anywhere else coins can be found. Those who do not hunt cannot find.
I guess I should add as a seller, I have no problem selling coins in said holders or even raw. I sell them daily and without question.
#5614450 - 04/20/1209:03 AMRe: Hot off the press! New Rules on E-bay
[Re: Bruceswar]
Conder101Conder101
FACT if I stop posting, trillions and trillions of transistors would be out of work.
Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 4994
Loc: East central Indiana
Quote:
when both ANACS and ICG were founded on the premise that having DEALERS on staff was a conflict of interest, and was a firable offense!
So were PCGS and NGC. Originally the founders stepped down from their companies. later they decided that it was OK for the owners/management to be dealers but I believe both PCGS and NGC still do not permit their graders to be dealers. (So I'm not sure THEY could satisfy the PNG rule. But they were given a pass for having to meet them by being approved by definition. Sure the owner/managers qualify but the GRADERS?)
Quote:
Well if all the TPG's have different grading standards, why doesn't someone or some company make something to standardize grading.
That was what ANACS was supposed to be. Back before ANACS everyone used their own standards. So in 1977 the ANA developed what was supposed to become the "Official Standards" for the industryas a whole and then in 1979 ANACS began using those standards for grading coins. The problem was other grading service popped up and began using their own standards. The problem is no one has enforcement capabilities othe than the government. Ebay and the major auction houses do come close though and slowly that is exactly what they are doing by slowly excluding services. A few years back Heritage started excluding the basement slabbers. They still do a few raw pieces but almost everything in their auctions now are ANACS, PCGS, NGC, or NCS. Ebay eliminated numerical grades unless it was one of the top four companies. Now they are making it difficult for two of the companies. Frankly it looks like they are slowly forcing to industry to a single grading standard, that of PCGS and/or NGC. by putting restrictions on everything else.
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Slab collector and researcher
reported as of 2/5/06
150 companies 331 production varieties
Registered: 06/21/06
Posts: 240
Loc: Fort Worth, TX
I wish I still had the clipping from Coin World that was at my old shop, from about 1985 -- just before PCGS and NGC started. The big dealers were protesting ANACS grading as too strict...killing our profits...can't feed my family...out of touch with reality.
Soon PCGS and NGC appeared with their "market grading" concept where coins with rub could be graded Mint State because they could be sold at Mint State prices. PCGS even admits such in their book!
#5616128 - 04/20/1209:36 PMRe: Hot off the press! New Rules on E-bay
[Re: Frank Provasek]
coinman_23885coinman_23885
FACT if I stop posting, trillions and trillions of transistors would be out of work.
Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 4869
Originally Posted By: Frank Provasek
I wish I still had the clipping from Coin World that was at my old shop, from about 1985 -- just before PCGS and NGC started. The big dealers were protesting ANACS grading as too strict...killing our profits...can't feed my family...out of touch with reality.
Soon PCGS and NGC appeared with their "market grading" concept where coins with rub could be graded Mint State because they could be sold at Mint State prices. PCGS even admits such in their book!
I have problems with the market grading concept myself and I think the market itself, and not the grading services, should make the pricing determination (or comparative valuation that the services call market grading). As a result of market grading coins are awarded additional grading points, and then collectors often add an additional premium over guide, and this is equivalent to paying a double premium in my opinion. So yes, I have problems with some of the coins that NGC and PCGS both grade, and there are coins that I would never purchase at their designated levels.
With this said, my problems with ANACS result from coins that I have seen at shows clearly appear to have problems that are not noted on the holders. I'm sure PCGS and NGC have their share, but I have seen far more in ANACS holders. I have also seen tremendous variability in ANACS over the years. The old small white holders - I"m in and I'll gladly purchase these when priced reasonably. The newer stuff I wouldn't touch. The grading issues are only exacerbated by the security issues raised by their holders. I have seen people crack them open and reseal them without any traceable evidence - this is absolutely scary from my perspective.
I also have problems with ICG. The older holders generally seem more conservative than some of the newer stuff, but they were still about a point - point and a half loose from my perspective. I have also seen problem coins in graded holders with the newer pieces. This concerns me as well. I apply the same level of scrutiny to these that I would an ANACS coin.
In short, while I agree with you that PCGS and NGC each have issues of their own, I ultimately agree with the new rule concerning ANACS and ICG grading. There are conservatively graded coins, but a lot of these have already been crossed, leaving a large of pool of grossly over graded coins that serve as excellent fodder for fraudulent sellers than may expose eBay to liability through its buyer protection plan. I personally would consider ANACS and ICG coins because I know what I am doing, but there are novices who do not and who will rely on the fact that ANACS and ICG are listed in, among other things, the Grey Sheet as evidence of their "conservative" grading. I support the decision.
_________________________
-Kenny
Areas of Interest: Original classic gold coins from the Southern mints (New Orleans, Charlotte, and Dahlonega); Carson City minted Morgan Dollars, early copper; high end, quality U.S. type coinage; proof like and deep mirror prooflike coinage; toners including Peace Dollars and classic gold; and cameo and deep/ultra cameo proof coins from 1936-1942.
You might not agree with ICG or ANACS, but they have over the years graded many coins properly. This is a total disregard for that. If you are cutting out ANACS and ICG you might miss out on a good coin.
Accidents do happen, but generally speaking the CURRENT ANACS and ICG holders coins are USUALLY overgraded by commonly accepted grading standards and anyone who thinks otherwise should compare the prices realized for similarly graded, identical coins in different holders.
Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 5681
Loc: Western Washington
Ebay invents arbitrary and spurious rules to suit themselves often enough to cause issues for many customers. Their ruling on my attempts (emails) to close my account illustrate this as a good example. They arbitrarily told me that I could not close my account (small numerical volume, infrequent sales, mostly buys) for 180 days after my last transaction because I might have a dispute or open issue! This is treatment as a customer is tripe! My last many transactions have all been simple bid/buys by me with clean feed-back given immediately. This is harassment and obstruction of reasonable process in commerce by holding up my account closure for nonsensical reasons!
Plus, the first thing that they did was confiscate my privileges including all Ebay Bucks that I had earned. Small minded and petty punishment nonsense! These people act like they are legally sovereign or something instead of being fair and even handed. I have been a customer of Ebay for nearly 20 years and never had any issues (100% positive feedback). I do not deserve to be backhanded for quitting by their capricious rules.
Seems to me that a company such as Heritage or Teletrade could capitalize on the upcoming Ebay policy change and create their own site similar to Ebay.
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Yes, I am a rocket scientist.
#5635286 - 04/28/1203:21 AMRe: Hot off the press! New Rules on E-bay
[Re: jimbucks]
Lehigh96Lehigh96
The Post-man always rings twice. Uhm... ring ring?
Registered: 03/28/08
Posts: 1884
Loc: The Poker Room
Originally Posted By: jimbucks
Seems to me that a company such as Heritage or Teletrade could capitalize on the upcoming Ebay policy change and create their own site similar to Ebay.
Heritage is already set up to compete with E-Bay via their Virtual Bourse Network. The problem is that their seller commission is 10% which is even higher than E-Bay's. Despite everyone's outrage at E-Bay's business practices, they will reign supreme as long as they are the cheapest venue with the most exposure.
#5635390 - 04/28/1207:02 AMRe: Hot off the press! New Rules on E-bay
[Re: Lehigh96]
coinman_23885coinman_23885
FACT if I stop posting, trillions and trillions of transistors would be out of work.
Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 4869
Originally Posted By: Lehigh96
Originally Posted By: jimbucks
Seems to me that a company such as Heritage or Teletrade could capitalize on the upcoming Ebay policy change and create their own site similar to Ebay.
Heritage is already set up to compete with E-Bay via their Virtual Bourse Network. The problem is that their seller commission is 10% which is even higher than E-Bay's. Despite everyone's outrage at E-Bay's business practices, they will reign supreme as long as they are the cheapest venue with the most exposure.
If it includes the PayPal fees, then it is actually cheaper. The standard eBay fee is 9% + 2.9% PayPal or so = ~11.9%. Clearly there is some variation (power sellers, etc.), but the price isn't as high as it may seem.
_________________________
-Kenny
Areas of Interest: Original classic gold coins from the Southern mints (New Orleans, Charlotte, and Dahlonega); Carson City minted Morgan Dollars, early copper; high end, quality U.S. type coinage; proof like and deep mirror prooflike coinage; toners including Peace Dollars and classic gold; and cameo and deep/ultra cameo proof coins from 1936-1942.
