Page 4 of 5 <12345>
Topic Options
#5591906 - 04/11/12 06:28 AM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: Hard Times]
James_EarlyUS Offline
TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 15419
Loc: St. Louis, MO
 Originally Posted By: Hard Times
Hi Folks,
That is the point, it is all opinion and not based on the scientific method of obtaining observations, interpreting them, then following up with further tests, etc. I did some experiments, and MS70 did NOT REACT WITH COPPER METAL as shown in my thread presenting the results of the experiments. Look at the results again and tell me I am wrong, I am okay with that, but show me where I am wrong with this interpretation. It is possible that MS70 does react with something ON copper surfaces sometimes, but it simply does not REACT WITH COPPER METAL. Tom if what you say is correct, write me an equation, word on the street is you have a PhD so you can probably do that.

There are too many of these old wives tales going around numismatics, this is probably one of them. If not, then prove it is all I am saying, because opinions are just that, proof is better.

Best, HT

I'm not sure I recall anyone claming that MS70 reacts with "COPPER METAL". The issue is whether or not it reacts or interacts with copper-oxide to produce a blue color. I think anyone who has played with MS70 knows that it does nothing to a fully red cent that hasn't oxidized.

However, the surface of a brown cent is covered with copper-oxide, and rest assured that application of MS-70 will turn it blue.

And if a cent is red/brown, then the MS70 will turn only the brown areas blue, and leave the red areas red.
_________________________
Proud EX-50% owner of the banned PCGS-certified Norweb/non-Norweb Wood Hibernia

My posts express my PERSONAL opinions ONLY. Please respect my right to Freedom of Speech as I respect yours.

Top
Share
#5592154 - 04/11/12 09:50 AM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: James_EarlyUS]
jgrinz Offline
TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 6526
Loc: NE Patriots Country
All I say , as no chemist mind you , if it smells like ammonia , and cleans like ammonia , and reacts to copper as dscribed ... its ammonia or based on ammonia.

Just be careful with its usage is all I am saying ... :O)

Carry on my fine folk !
_________________________




Top
#6662899 - 05/03/13 11:49 AM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: jgrinz]
cwtripp Offline
Learning the Ropes


Registered: 04/19/13
Posts: 23
Just for everyone's knowledge MS70 contains the following:

ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM
CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM

POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

INERT MATERIAL PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 7732-18-5 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

Top
#6663890 - 05/03/13 06:17 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: dimefreak]
Hard Times Offline
Chatzilla


Registered: 01/16/10
Posts: 2171
Loc: Tejas
 Originally Posted By: dimefreak
 Originally Posted By: TomB
I am not stating that the following is happening, but copper metal plus an ammonia solution in air can give the following-

4Cu + O(2) → 2Cu(2)O

Exposure to ammonia solutions: 2Cu(2)O + 4NH(3) → 2[Cu(NH(3))(2)]+ + O(2)

Further exposure to air (approximately 21% volume O(2) and 78% volume N(2)): [Cu(NH(3))(4)(H2O)(2)]2+

The above is a blue color.


Awesome thanks for that TomB. I actually asked my professor to do it for me today but he is writing his dissertation and I have 6 exams to study for. After seeing the actual formula I am pretty confident I wouldn't have been able to write that. My Chemistry class went way too fast so it was more cramming than learning.


Tom,
This is the first time I have seen this equation, it is interesting, and possibly testable. My contention is that the metallic blue, violet and red toning on copper before and after using MS70 is a copper sulfide, whereas your equation suggests a copper ammonium hydrate with no sulfur present. My guess is the latter will not produce metallic luster, but again, there may be a way to test this. Especially now that we have the ingredients (thanks!) we know that there is stuff in MS70 that could possibly react with copper or remove patina, so stay tuned....

Best, HT
_________________________
The half dime shown as my avatar did not pass CAC - PCGS MS64+. Remember, an opinion is just an opinion.

Successful CS member transactions with X2Rider, Mark Feld, keigwin, HollyDay Coins, gpnyc, Broadstruck, Charmy, coinsarefun

Top
#6663944 - 05/03/13 06:39 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: cwtripp]
Hard Times Offline
Chatzilla


Registered: 01/16/10
Posts: 2171
Loc: Tejas


ETHANOL, 2-BUTOXY PEL: 25 PPM
CAS #: 111-76-2 TLV: 25 PPM

2-Butoxyethanol is an organic solvent with the formula BuOC2H4OH (Bu = CH3CH2CH2CH2). It is a colorless liquid with a sweet, ether-like odour. It is a butyl ether of ethylene glycol. It is a relatively nonvolatile, inexpensive solvent with modest surfactant properties.


POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE, LIQUID PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 1310-58-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

From Wikipedia:

Potassium hydroxide is an inorganic compound with the formula KOH, commonly called caustic potash. KOH is noteworthy as the precursor to most soft and liquid soaps as well as numerous potassium-containing chemicals.


SODIUM GLUCONATE PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 527-07-1 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED


From Wikipedia:

Sodium gluconate is a compound with formula NaC6H11O7. It is the sodium salt of gluconic acid. It has E number E576. Sodium gluconate is widely used in textile dyeing, printing and metal surface water treatment, chelating agent, steel surface cleaning agent, cleaning agent for glass bottle,chelating agent for cement, plating and alumina dyeing industries.


SULFONATED SODIUM SALTS PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED
CAS #: 147732-60-3 TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED

A salt or ester of sulfonic acid. What I am seeing is that this compound should react with organic materials or possibly neutralize acidic compounds on the surfaces. Don't know for sure.

From what I can tell from their properties, these are cleaning agents, that will also oxidize the surface material on a metal which will remove this material, and there seems to be substances in MS70 that reacts with organic material to break it down and remove it. Does anyone else know what these chemical do when used as cleaning agents?

Best, HT
_________________________
The half dime shown as my avatar did not pass CAC - PCGS MS64+. Remember, an opinion is just an opinion.

Successful CS member transactions with X2Rider, Mark Feld, keigwin, HollyDay Coins, gpnyc, Broadstruck, Charmy, coinsarefun

Top
#6663954 - 05/03/13 06:43 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: Hard Times]
Hard Times Offline
Chatzilla


Registered: 01/16/10
Posts: 2171
Loc: Tejas
BTW, there seems to be no ammonia compounds present in MS70 that would be consistent with a reaction proposed above.

Best, HT
_________________________
The half dime shown as my avatar did not pass CAC - PCGS MS64+. Remember, an opinion is just an opinion.

Successful CS member transactions with X2Rider, Mark Feld, keigwin, HollyDay Coins, gpnyc, Broadstruck, Charmy, coinsarefun

Top
#6664021 - 05/03/13 07:11 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: James_EarlyUS]
Hard Times Offline
Chatzilla


Registered: 01/16/10
Posts: 2171
Loc: Tejas
 Originally Posted By: James_EarlyUS
 Originally Posted By: Hard Times
Hi Folks,
That is the point, it is all opinion and not based on the scientific method of obtaining observations, interpreting them, then following up with further tests, etc. I did some experiments, and MS70 did NOT REACT WITH COPPER METAL as shown in my thread presenting the results of the experiments. Look at the results again and tell me I am wrong, I am okay with that, but show me where I am wrong with this interpretation. It is possible that MS70 does react with something ON copper surfaces sometimes, but it simply does not REACT WITH COPPER METAL. Tom if what you say is correct, write me an equation, word on the street is you have a PhD so you can probably do that.

There are too many of these old wives tales going around numismatics, this is probably one of them. If not, then prove it is all I am saying, because opinions are just that, proof is better.

Best, HT

I'm not sure I recall anyone claming that MS70 reacts with "COPPER METAL". The issue is whether or not it reacts or interacts with copper-oxide to produce a blue color. I think anyone who has played with MS70 knows that it does nothing to a fully red cent that hasn't oxidized.

However, the surface of a brown cent is covered with copper-oxide, and rest assured that application of MS-70 will turn it blue.

And if a cent is red/brown, then the MS70 will turn only the brown areas blue, and leave the red areas red.


Sorry for the many replies to this thread but the info on what MS70 is has got me to thinking about the process.

Copper oxide is black, not brown:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper%28II%29_oxide

Also this article states that:

It reacts with concentrated alkali to form the corresponding cuprate salts:

2 XOH + CuO + H2O → X2[Cu(OH)4]

Substitute the alkalis in MS70 - Na and K in to the 'X' in the formula.

You get:

Na2[Cu(OH4]

or K2[Cu(OH)4]

These should be the predictive compounds if MS70 is reacting with copper oxide to produce cuprate salts. Such compounds of copper are blue and green and do not have metallic lusters - see the green on brass statues for example (see Statue of Liberty). What is observed on copper is red-blue-violet toning with metallic luster typical of sulfides. So I don't think this is what is happening.

What is patina on copper?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patina

Looks like it can be a whole bunch of different compounds, but the brown patination appears to be sulfur based according to this article. So can we write an equation with some MS70 compound that reacts with the copper-sulfur compounds in the brown patina that would produce the vivid sulfide-looking toning? That could be possible. That would potentially be an argument for MS70 really turning copper blue-violet-red, as clearly as what James says above, the color is always associated to where the brown patina was, this is shown over and over again. Hmm.....

Best, HT
_________________________
The half dime shown as my avatar did not pass CAC - PCGS MS64+. Remember, an opinion is just an opinion.

Successful CS member transactions with X2Rider, Mark Feld, keigwin, HollyDay Coins, gpnyc, Broadstruck, Charmy, coinsarefun

Top
#6664191 - 05/03/13 08:12 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: Hard Times]
physics-fan3.14 Online   happy

WYNK Black Belt

TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 01/17/06
Posts: 12282
Loc: Charleston!
Toning has nothing at all to do with sulfur, sulfide, sulfate, or any other sulfur type compound. It has everything to do with thin film interference - the presence of a film on the surface of a coin produces a light wave interaction that appears to produce color. It can be any compound at all - as long as it is thin enough to produce thin film interference it will appear to have a color. Silver sulfide, the most easily understandable and most common compound on silver coins, is actually dark brown or black when it is thick enough (its the same compound that produces brown or black tarnish on silverware). So, the compounds that are created are not important - any of a thousand different compounds could produce a layer thin enough to produce thin film interference and cause color on a coin.

If you want to know more about the chemistry of copper coins, I suggest you contact BadThad - he invented Verdi-Gone (to remove verdigris from copper coins) and was at one time working on a very exhaustive study of the compounds that form on copper coins.
_________________________
I reserve the right to change my mind with new facts, experience, opinions, or viewpoints.





The Art and Science of Grading Coins

Top
#7526274 - 03/15/14 05:51 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: physics-fan3.14]
WingedLiberty1 Offline
I am gonna miss that car.


Registered: 07/31/11
Posts: 195
So would a dip in MS70 automatically cause an AT designation from the TPGs?
Top
#7528496 - 03/16/14 04:34 PM Re: Keeping MS70 'Coin Cleaner' in Perspective [Re: James_EarlyUS]
coinman1794 Offline
I was posting here when you were in diapers.


Registered: 03/02/02
Posts: 3920
 Originally Posted By: James_EarlyUS
 Originally Posted By: Hard Times
Hi Folks,
That is the point, it is all opinion and not based on the scientific method of obtaining observations, interpreting them, then following up with further tests, etc. I did some experiments, and MS70 did NOT REACT WITH COPPER METAL as shown in my thread presenting the results of the experiments. Look at the results again and tell me I am wrong, I am okay with that, but show me where I am wrong with this interpretation. It is possible that MS70 does react with something ON copper surfaces sometimes, but it simply does not REACT WITH COPPER METAL. Tom if what you say is correct, write me an equation, word on the street is you have a PhD so you can probably do that.

There are too many of these old wives tales going around numismatics, this is probably one of them. If not, then prove it is all I am saying, because opinions are just that, proof is better.

Best, HT

I'm not sure I recall anyone claming that MS70 reacts with "COPPER METAL". The issue is whether or not it reacts or interacts with copper-oxide to produce a blue color. I think anyone who has played with MS70 knows that it does nothing to a fully red cent that hasn't oxidized.

However, the surface of a brown cent is covered with copper-oxide, and rest assured that application of MS-70 will turn it blue.

And if a cent is red/brown, then the MS70 will turn only the brown areas blue, and leave the red areas red.


100% correct, James \(thumbs u
_________________________
My website: http://www.dmrarecoins.com

Top
Page 4 of 5 <12345>


Moderator:  ngcmod, dena, Jay Turner, CCGmod0, PaulS., Barbara T, Keith Zaner, ccgmod1 
Hop to:
Boards Information
Please read the
TERMS OF USE - BOARD GUIDELINES
for the rules of moderation on the boards.



Search
The Money Marketplace
Budget Kitchens London
by rakpenak
10:57 PM
WTB: Junk Silver
by ChasingKingKirby
10:54 AM
New @ kittlecoins.com - Type Coins; Lovett Tokens; Copper Wilson Dollar; Commems
by illini420
10/29/14 10:08 PM
PROOF 70 COINS FOR SALE
by wmfielding
10/28/14 09:58 AM
Comics Marketplace
an ASM in 9.9 (11 years old)--one of a kind!...
by cloudofwit
ASM #123 Pedigree; ASM #129 Beat to Sheol...
by cloudofwit
ASM 361 , 362 , 363 Mexican Version
by Mijael77
01:03 AM
Moondog's Halloween Sale - Pre-Code Horror and EC's!
by Moondog
12:40 AM
Advertisements

Generated in 0.014 seconds in which 0.004 seconds were spent on a total of 14 queries. Zlib compression enabled.