#5243153 - 11/20/1101:11 AMRe: The Official "Hey, these scores need fixing" thread (Revised)
[Re: mschmidt]
bomber-bobbomber-bob
I was posting here when you were in diapers.
Registered: 10/14/08
Posts: 3525
Loc: Western Suburbs of Chicago
Hey Michael. You raise a very good point that I am acknowledging. The Tip Top Comics was relatively inexpensive and I don't expect 500 points for it. It was just that 60 points seemed insulting. To save the poor book from embarassment I will probably just remove it.
My request is in regards to the Hellboy (1993-1994) set:
I think the points on Dimepress #4 and San Diego Comic-Con Comics #2 could stand to be bumped up a bit.
While Next Men #21 could stand to be bumped down some points.
Current point standings for 9.8 are as follows:
Dime Press #4 - 320 SDCC Comics #2 - 280 Next Men #21 - 220
What I believe they should be bumped up/down to:
Dime Press #4 - 600 (at least) SDCC Comics #2 - 400 Next Men #21 - 125
Dime Press #4 is the first international appearance of Hellboy and was limited to only 2000 copies and was available ONLY IN ITALY in May of 1993. Many people were not even aware of this book until the creator, Mike Mignola, started bringing it up in interviews around the time the first Hellboy movie came out and was proving successful. 30 or so copies graded so far and only 2 universal 9.8s and 12 universal 9.6s of the lot. This book in 9.6 or higher rarely comes to market and when it does it commands decent attention and dollars. I have seen a 9.2 go for $135, a picked up my 9.6 for $260 earlier this year with several bidders in the mix with me, and unfortunately have never seen one of the 2 9.8s on the auction block. Finding a raw mid to high grade copy in the US is nearly impossible and can still set you back over $100 easy and most raw copies available are in terrible shape thanks to the 80% black wraparound cover and the required journey overseas. This book is scarce (even in low grade), demand is much higher than supply as shown by the action when this book goes to auction., and this book has historical significance to what is now considered, after 2 big budget films, a main stream/internationally recognized character. Based on this info I believe this issue should net more points.
Also, to help justify my request, another copper age indy key issue Caliber Presents #1 (first appearance of The Crow) is worth 600 points at 9.8 and this book was available at a much higher print run right here in the US and there are a several copies on eBay as of now including several 9.8s. I think it's a reasonable request for Dime Press #4 to equal, if not surpass, Caliber Presents #1 in point value.
SDCC #2 (1st US appearance of Hellboy) could be bumped up as it was a very limited printing as well and was only available at the San Diego International Comic-con that year. It also features John Byrne, James O'Barr, and new (not re-printed) Frank Miller work in it as well. The book easily sells in the $150-$225 range for a 9.8, but rarely comes to market at 9.6 or higher.
Next Men 21 could stand to have its score dropped as it can be found anywhere at any grade and I have seen several 9.8 copies sell for under $100 with 9.6s selling for around $50 pretty frequently. This book is not scarce and there is much more supply than demand in the market.
Chime in if you think my request is or isn't merited. Maybe my perspective is skewed.
Thanks Gemma for your consideration and supreme registry wisdom!
Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 15441
Loc: Vernon Hills, IL
My $0.02 ...
I think SDDC #2 should stay as is - it's a $200-250 book in 9.8, so the current 280 points value seems totally fair. Anything more just wouldn't be in tune with market value.
Reducing Next Men #21 a bit seems reasonable, but dropping it down to 125 points is just too low. It's a pretty consistent $150+ book in 9.8, so reducing it to 180 points would make more sense.
I agree with the bumping up of Dime Press #4, though
_________________________ Looking for: Neil Gaiman rarities Cerebus #1 in VF/NM or better
I think SDDC #2 should stay as is - it's a $200-250 book in 9.8, so the current 280 points value seems totally fair. Anything more just wouldn't be in tune with market value.
Reducing Next Men #21 a bit seems reasonable, but dropping it down to 125 points is just too low. It's a pretty consistent $150+ book in 9.8, so reducing it to 180 points would make more sense.
I agree with the bumping up of Dime Press #4, though
Thanks for your input mschmidt and I'm glad for the support for the Dime Press #4 bump!
You make a valid point, I may have gone too low on the Next Men 21 and 170-180 seems a more reasonable score. However I still think SDCC #2 deserves to be bumped up to at least the 300-350 range as, putting the $200-$250 market value aside for the moment, the book was a low printed copy and was not nearly as easy to acquire as most other books when it was released. One could not walk into their LCS and pick up a copy of SDCC #2. I'm not fully versed in the algorithm used to determine the point values, but it's my understanding that it includes market value as well as scarcity (along with many other parameters I'm sure) to determine point value and this books limited initial availability and limited number of high CGC grade (9.6-9.8) copies justifies the bump, IMHO.
Again, thanks for chiming in and I hope more boardies do the same so we can get a broader consensus for Gemma to make the decision.
Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 30073
Loc: Virginia, USA
Glad to meet a fellow Hellboy fan.
Originally Posted By: Clouded9
Also, to help justify my request, another copper age indy key issue Caliber Presents #1 (first appearance of The Crow) is worth 600 points at 9.8 and this book was available at a much higher print run right here in the US and there are a several copies on eBay as of now including several 9.8s. I think it's a reasonable request for Dime Press #4 to equal, if not surpass, Caliber Presents #1 in point value.
Since I own both Crow and Hellboy sets, here is my assessment of the situaton concerning the fanzine Dime Press 4.
1. Dime Press 4 doesn't even fit into the same category as Caliber Presents 1. Although it is cool to own Dime Press 4 as a Hellboy fan - and it is - it is still a prototype that many used to boost their profits by posting the same "interview statement" over and over, proclaiming this book as the first appearance. Caliber Presents 1 is the real first full appearance of The Crow, and even O'Barr would tell you this. He even states this in later HC reprints of his famous series, though this was never in question as it is clear the significance of Caliber Presents 1.
2. The fanzine Dime Press 4 has such a twisted history of its significance to the Hellboy storyline, it has achieved a status that Mignola may not appreciate. If you don't own these books, go to your local library and check out The Art of Hellboy HC and Hellboy Library Vol. 1 HC. Guess how many times Mignola mentions Dime Press 4? I'll let you go reseach it, and then wait for your reaction and findings.
3. I have a feeling this book had a much higher print run than 2,000 copies, as there are a few European sellers that have a steady stream of these books in all sorts of conditions. One seller I know of has already sold 14 copies over three years. Either he is the distributor, or he has had no problem at all finding this book in the European market.
4. Not a knock on CGC, but when I submitted a request to CGC asking that the label be changed to "protoptype appearance" for Hellboy in Dime Press 4, unfortunately they mistakenly used a fan's personal website as a reference to decide where this book fits in. What did the fan use as a reference for Dime Press 4? The same quote used over and over by sellers to boost the final sales of this book, yet Mignola gave this book no mention in either of his hardcovers he published. Shoot - I revealed what I found to be true.
Check out the Art of Hellboy, and you will see the first concept drawing/painting of Hellboy from Mignola's perspective. It was a team piece when he first was considering the character, which was going to be a team adventure series (before he even thought of BPRD). And that drawing looks much more like the Hellboy we know today. But the Hellboy Library HC is fantastic in that at the back of the book, there is a one-page letter from Mignola talking about how he came to create the character Hellboy. It leads into eight pages of colored pages containing the first two full appearances of Hellboy - San Diego Comic-Con Comics 2 and the four-page pamphlet insert story leading into Seed of Destruction published in Comic Buyer's Guide #1070. Both are great Hellboy references. Unfortunately, I'm not sure CGC will grade the CBG pamphlet since it is a B&W stapled-in book
Dime Press 4's points should stay right where they are at, in my opinion. The hype machine surrounding this book have blown its value way out of proportion. San Diego Comic-Con Comics 2 should be boosted higher as even in both Mignola HCs, he makes it clear this is where he feels the character finally hit the market.
No offense meant to your request. There has been a few discussions about Dime Press 4 based on the market misperception. Check out those two Mignola HCs and tell me what you think.
#5262786 - 11/29/1103:13 PMRe: The Official "Hey, these scores need fixing" thread (Revised)
[Re: Bosco685]
Ghost TownGhost Town A million points of li... er... comics
FACT if I stop posting, trillions and trillions of transistors would be out of work.
Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 4142
Hi Gemma:
I noticed the points for many of the scores for Amazing Spider-Man were adjusted recently. The changes make a lot of sense to me. They seem mostly in line with prices realized for those books.
If that's what you're going for, you might want to look at Avengers #1, 3, and 4. Those point totals seem kind of low, at least compared to other Silver Age Marvels that sell in the same price range.
(Of course, I realize it's crazy to notice or care about this stuff. But it is fun.)
Registered: 12/08/07
Posts: 30073
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Bosco685
Dime Press 4's points should stay right where they are at, in my opinion. The hype machine surrounding this book have blown its value way out of proportion. San Diego Comic-Con Comics 2 should be boosted higher as even in both Mignola HCs, he makes it clear this is where he feels the character finally hit the market.
Amazing how some folks get points so easy. Just incredible!
#5300808 - 12/13/1103:39 PMRe: The Official "Hey, these scores need fixing" thread (Revised)
[Re: Doc Joe]
mikelutesmikelutes
Collector is an understatement.
Registered: 03/15/11
Posts: 115
Loc: Missouri
I just have a small request, in the Wolverine Limited Series (1982) set, the Trade Paperback is barely worth any points at all, and I understand that the comics themselves are more valuable but with only 12 total trade paperbacks graded I think it deserves a little more then simply 15 points for a 9.6 as in comparison to the over 1900 graded of #4 and more then 2000 of the other 3, only 12 being graded makes it quite a rare find and whereas I don't expect it to be worth as many points as the comics I think at least doubling its points would be fair.
Hey Michael. You raise a very good point that I am acknowledging.
