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#4814571 - 05/19/11 10:11 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: mschmidt]
icculus308win Offline
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Registered: 12/21/08
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 Originally Posted By: mschmidt

(If anything, based on the recent $23k sale, a TMNT #1 in CGC 9.8 should actually be worth a lot more points than it is right now )


Adam, you did a crapp load of work. Quite interesting too!! I feel bad, cause I see the bottom line like him. If someone were to bring the current sale to Gemma's attention in the "hey these scores need fixing or PM Gemma, I surmise it would be plugged into the algorithm, and Jeff and the other owner of the 9.8 would get a substantial bump due to the sale. Plain and simple I feel. It is way undervalued now. BUT, bring your stats forth to her and see what she thinks.
Like I said, your #2 Spot is really the #1 spot minus just a highgrade #1. Your set is awesome.


Edited by icculus308win (05/19/11 10:48 PM)
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#4814679 - 05/19/11 10:37 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: icculus308win]
Bosco685 Offline

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 Originally Posted By: icculus308win
Like I said, your #2 Spot is really like a #1 spot minus a highgrade #1.


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#4814895 - 05/19/11 11:41 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: mschmidt]
Peter Palmer Offline
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Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 7909
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: mschmidt
I think where you're going wrong here is by completely disregarding the monetary value of an issue #1 versus the rest of the issues in that particular set.

A Walking Dead #1 in CGC 9.8 is worth around $600 (so it's actually fairly undervalued in the registry), but buying all the other issues in the WD set in CGC 9.8 would set you back thousands of dollars. As such, it makes perfect sense that a WD #1 in CGC 9.8 does not trump all those other issues.

That's the case for pretty much all the CA sets you mention - even though the first issue carries a premium over all the other issues (well, with the exception of Miracleman where issue #1 is actually the cheapest of them all), there's nowhere near the value difference between issue #1 and #2 that we're seeing in the TMNT set.

I know how hard you've worked on your TMNT set - and that it must well & truly suck to be pushed to the #2 spot based on a single book - but bumping up the TMNT #2-62 issues to an unrealistic points value simply so the set cannot be dominated by a solitary #1 in CGC 9.8 is illogical and unfair.

The truth of the matter is that a lot of us collect titles where random issues are bloody hard to find in CGC 9.8 - but said issues just don't have much value on the open market. It took me almost 2 years to track down the solitary CGC 9.8 copy of Sandman #18 - the last book I needed in order to complete my set - and how does the Registry reward me? With 50 measly points. And as much as it pains me to admit this - 50 points is actually fair for that book. It's worth a ton more to me, but it would probably sell for about $60-70 if I put it on eBay.

And correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that also the case for most of the later issues of TMNT?

I'm sure that there are individual issues of TMNT where the points need adjusting - for instance, the #9 in 9.8 has two sales of $300, so 48 points for that book seems low. But it still doesn't change the fact that a #1 in CGC 9.8 is worth almost 75 times more than the 2nd most valuable book in that set (apart from the #3 variant) which you just can't ignore when it comes to assigning registry points.

(If anything, based on the recent $23k sale, a TMNT #1 in CGC 9.8 should actually be worth a lot more points than it is right now )


Michael,

You make a good point about the relative values of the first issues versus the cost of purchasing the rest of the run.

In making my case earlier in this thread, I came to the realization that it's not necessarily the #1 point value that needs to be adjusted as it deserves to be much higher than anything else in the run. What I found was that it's entirely possible that many of the later issues could likely be valued higher than what they are. I can't say I fully agree with the sentiment of my earlier point adjustment proposal as being "unrealistic" (although I will say it was a pretty "shoot from the hip" number). Like I mentioned, there are quite a few books in the run that are plentiful in 9.8 (20+) that are easy to find on ebay and can be had for $25-$50 each. By all means, keep those ones at the 40 points for a 9.8 that they currently receive. It's the ones that would fetch far more that need to be evaluated.

To give you an idea of what a point increase would do, let's say you change all the issues that get 40 points in 9.8 and increase them to 50 points each. Even that would put someone within striking distance of a 9.8 with a 9.4 #1 and a full set of 9.8's. Keep in mind, of course, that many of the issues have not yet been graded in 9.8, so if I looked solely at point values of the highest-graded copies, one could still be out of range.

As far as the value of the later issues in the run, I'd say you're only half-correct. There are many issues late in the run that if put on ebay, would likely fetch 60-70 dollars in 9.8, but often these are the issues done by guest artists and writers. However, there are some high points in the series that are fondly remembered by fans and many would pay a premium for a graded 9.8. The Zulli stories are still talked about among turtle fans, A.C. Farley's Hall of Lost Legends is still referenced today, and the final 13 issues in the run mark Eastman and Laird's personal return to the title with a huge story arc that many fans clamor for. Many of these "big" issues, coupled with the fact that they are rare in high-grade (i.e. 0 or 1 on the census), would likely fetch double that as a baseline estimate.

This brings me to another observation. Something I noticed when compiling data was that in runs like Action and ASM (and even looking at Michael's Sandman and Miracleman sets), individual issues didn't get scored in a uniform fashion, rather they were subjected to the algorithm and given a point total suitable for the issue. Individual issues fluctuated in point value. I realize that Action and ASM have far more collectors out there than TMNT, but perhaps the generic point value was given due to lack of information about the series. There is something a little bothersome when a common issue featuring a non-canon story from a guest creative staff gets as many points as a cannon issue featuring a first appearance in a major story arc written by the creators of the property.

I'd also disagree with the your assessment of the 1st print being 75 times more valuable than the 2nd most valuable issue, even excluding the #3 variant. At $23K (rounded up), that would put the 2nd most valuable book in 9.8 at $300. I WISH I would get a #1 2nd print, #1 3rd print, #4 (2nd) error variant, or even another Raphael or Leonardo for $300. I know of at least one sale of that occurred off of ebay for a 9.8 #1 2nd print that went for well over $1K. GPA even has the last sale of the same book in 9.4 going over $300. Not to say your point isn't taken. It is. I can't and shouldn't disregard price when it comes to the registry. What I'm leaning toward now is to have the point totals of the later issues more accurately reflect the value.

I'm definitely going to take your points into consideration. I welcome this kind of discussion as it gives me some perspective on the issue. I've got a great deal of respect for you as a fellow collector based on your knowledge and keen ability to grade accurately. Plus, your registry sets are impressive. I remember when you completed your Sandman run and posted it for all to see. I hope to do something like that with my TMNT books someday.
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#4814928 - 05/19/11 11:54 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: icculus308win]
Peter Palmer Offline
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Registered: 11/17/08
Posts: 7909
Loc: Pennsylvania
 Originally Posted By: icculus308win


Adam, you did a crapp load of work. Quite interesting too!! I feel bad, cause I see the bottom line like him. If someone were to bring the current sale to Gemma's attention in the "hey these scores need fixing or PM Gemma, I surmise it would be plugged into the algorithm, and Jeff and the other owner of the 9.8 would get a substantial bump due to the sale. Plain and simple I feel. It is way undervalued now. BUT, bring your stats forth to her and see what she thinks.
Like I said, your #2 Spot is really the #1 spot minus just a highgrade #1. Your set is awesome.


Eric,

I started getting very curious about registry points and even if I wasn't planning on sharing the data, I was going to do the work to satisfy my own curiosity. I can see someone making that argument for adjusting the point value of the #1 to be even higher, but that generally increases the point value across all grades to the point where the standings wouldn't be affected, much like the substantial point increase within the last year. However, that same argument could also be made of many of the other books that don't get much attention. For example #1 2nd print only gets 160 points in 9.8 and that's a $1000+ book.

I appreciate the compliment. \(worship\) I'm still going to work hard to complete the registry. In fact, I had a group of books graded today that will fill in all but one slot in the registry. Can't wait to get them in-hand.
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#4815981 - 05/20/11 01:58 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: Peter Palmer]
icculus308win Offline
I was posting here when you were in diapers.


Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 3721
Loc: Barrington, IL
 Originally Posted By: Peter Palmer
 Originally Posted By: icculus308win


Adam, you did a crapp load of work. Quite interesting too!! I feel bad, cause I see the bottom line like him. If someone were to bring the current sale to Gemma's attention in the "hey these scores need fixing or PM Gemma, I surmise it would be plugged into the algorithm, and Jeff and the other owner of the 9.8 would get a substantial bump due to the sale. Plain and simple I feel. It is way undervalued now. BUT, bring your stats forth to her and see what she thinks.
Like I said, your #2 Spot is really the #1 spot minus just a highgrade #1. Your set is awesome.


Eric,

I started getting very curious about registry points and even if I wasn't planning on sharing the data, I was going to do the work to satisfy my own curiosity. I can see someone making that argument for adjusting the point value of the #1 to be even higher, but that generally increases the point value across all grades to the point where the standings wouldn't be affected, much like the substantial point increase within the last year. However, that same argument could also be made of many of the other books that don't get much attention. For example #1 2nd print only gets 160 points in 9.8 and that's a $1000+ book.

I appreciate the compliment. \(worship\) I'm still going to work hard to complete the registry. In fact, I had a group of books graded today that will fill in all but one slot in the registry. Can't wait to get them in-hand.


Adam, what you say has a lot of merit, (all of you TRUE TMNT guys always do!!) especially when pertaining to a 9.8 #2. I guess we will see what Gemma thinks. Or the point values stay the course.
I can't believe all you will have left is one slot to fill!!! Man you have been fricken busy in your set for the past two years!! Good God Man!! Than it appears a 9.6 #1 might be your sights?.?.?.? In the near future do I see Adam in pole position again?.?.?.?
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#4888760 - 06/23/11 02:15 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: icculus308win]
whetteon Offline
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Registered: 11/18/03
Posts: 7636
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I'm at odds with this debate because I understand the value of a rare #1 issue in 9.8 and how a great deal of points can be associated to the book. What I choose to find at fault here is that the "set" of the top place winner isn't a set at all but instead a single book. Where's the fun in that? I would attempt to convince Gemma that some sort of point value should be added to the total points in relation to the number of books you have represented in the set.

So for example, if you have 33 of 100 books listed on the registry you should get an additional 33 points add to the total. And if the entire set is complete you should get an extra 100 points.

Seems like a logical way to encourage set collecting and not "highest ever found grade trumps all you losers" collecting.
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#4889561 - 06/23/11 08:05 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: whetteon]
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#4889651 - 06/23/11 08:39 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: Liaton-9000]
mschmidt Offline
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Registered: 10/20/07
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I think that's a nice idea, but it wouldn't really change anything for those sets where the #1 in 9.8 carries a (monetary) value far beyond all the rest of the books in the set combined. Of which the TMNT set is a prime example
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#5061741 - 09/04/11 04:29 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: mschmidt]
.Troy Offline
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Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 4528
I feel your pain. I don't know where I stand on this, or how to fix it. But I certainly feel for you. I was contemplating attempting to put together a set myself, but reading this has somewhat put me off. The fact that one book is worth more then 80 other books in the same grade just makes it sound less fun to collect, more than anything with the registry.

Even though mathematically it makes sense, losing top set to a single book seems
You know....

How about getting your books Signature series? \:o


Edited by Spiderfan21 (09/04/11 04:34 PM)
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#5061786 - 09/04/11 04:39 PM Re: Scoring Question Re: TMNT #1-62 set [Re: .Troy]
Silent Master Offline
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Registered: 04/29/09
Posts: 2228
Loc: New Mexico
Glad this got brought back up because I have an idea...

Why can't CGC give a 100% completed set a "bonus" score? I would think that if you manage to get all 62 TMNT's CGC, regardless of grade, there should be a pat on the back in the form of a point total bonus.

What do you think??
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