Ok - let's lock things down to real transactions please.

0

Why not have the Probation Discussion and Probation Thread in the same area as the Kudos Forum and rename it the Feedback Forum or Kudos and Probation Forum. Or the Kudos and Some People Suck Forum.

 

All info in one place.

 

Now that sounds like a bloody good idea.

 

Although I'm not messing with Arch at the moment, I value my cyberspace wedding tackle.

I'm interpreting masking and trying to sell non-CGC slabbed items in that post. And full frontal nudity. Mods notified. Enjoy your vacation.

There are a lot of newer folks I am unfamiliar with and I'm sure vice versa.

I understand it may help them to see transactions, but I haven't had Board purchases or FS threads in over a year, so trying to find and post a link to an old transaction is too tedious (at best) to attempt.

Most of my buying transactions are done via PM anyways :shrug:

How do people address other issues?

Yes we post great shipping and customer service and other things in the kudos thread.

But what about the other things?

What if we don't agree with the grading? (OBVIOUS overgrading, etc), or the packing was inadequate or other things? How can tis be addressed without hurt feelings or flame wars?

Negative comments or kudos are not addressed in the Probation Area, unless you are placed on the List or the HOS.

We wont see things like:

(Seller Kudos)

"positives - djpinkpanther67 packed the books adequately and was expeditous with the shipping

needs improvement - sometimes overgrades his books - especially FFs"

Or

(Buyer Kudos)

"Positives - djpinkpanther67 is great to do business with. Great communication and makes payments in a timely manner

Needs improvement - Generally will only do time payments"

DO we just handle this via PM so not to embarrass the Seller?

Just a thought

How do people address other issues?

Yes we post great shipping and customer service and other things in the kudos thread.

 

But what about the other things?

 

What if we don't agree with the grading? (OBVIOUS overgrading, etc), or the packing was inadequate or other things? How can tis be addressed without hurt feelings or flame wars?

 

Negative comments or kudos are not addressed in the Probation Area, unless you are placed on the List or the HOS.

 

We wont see things like:

 

(Seller Kudos)

"positives - djpinkpanther67 packed the books adequately and was expeditous with the shipping

needs improvement - sometimes overgrades his books - especially FFs"

 

Or

(Buyer Kudos)

"Positives - djpinkpanther67 is great to do business with. Great communication and makes payments in a timely manner

Needs improvement - Generally will only do time payments"

 

DO we just handle this via PM so not to embarrass the Seller?

 

Just a thought

 

I was not wild about a change at first, because I was not terribly unhappy with the other thread, it was as much as I needed...but I do like this better now that I see it.

As for what you are describing...Well, if you were not that happy, don't leave anything. If you got something horrid and you couldn't get your trading partner to make it right, that belongs in the probation discussion thread...but not every transaction deserves kudos...

It's not like telling your kid that "WOW, you got a 70 on that test, YOU are the BEST! " A

kudo" should be praise. You don't have to praise every transaction or document every one.

Just how I would view it...:shrug:

Kudos are for entirely satisfactory transactions. If the transaction is not entirely satisfactory, I would hope that any board seller would be willing to make it so through refunds, returns, or apologies (depending on the severity of the problem). If I sell something, and you are not happy when the book arrives, LET ME KNOW! I will fix it, and most of the people here would probably do the same. If not, THEN take it to the probation thread.

How do people address other issues?

Yes we post great shipping and customer service and other things in the kudos thread.

 

But what about the other things?

 

What if we don't agree with the grading? (OBVIOUS overgrading, etc), or the packing was inadequate or other things? How can tis be addressed without hurt feelings or flame wars?

 

Negative comments or kudos are not addressed in the Probation Area, unless you are placed on the List or the HOS.

 

We wont see things like:

 

(Seller Kudos)

"positives - djpinkpanther67 packed the books adequately and was expeditous with the shipping

needs improvement - sometimes overgrades his books - especially FFs"

 

Or

(Buyer Kudos)

"Positives - djpinkpanther67 is great to do business with. Great communication and makes payments in a timely manner

Needs improvement - Generally will only do time payments"

 

DO we just handle this via PM so not to embarrass the Seller?

 

Just a thought

 

 

I was not wild about a change at first, because I was not terribly unhappy with the other thread, it was as much as I needed...but I do like this better now that I see it.

 

As for what you are describing...Well, if you were not that happy, don't leave anything. If you got something horrid and you couldn't get your trading partner to make it right, that belongs in the probation discussion thread...but not every transaction deserves kudos...

 

It's not like telling your kid that "WOW, you got a 70 on that test, YOU are the BEST! " A

kudo" should be praise. You don't have to praise every transaction or document every one.

 

Just how I would view it...:shrug:

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless. Which is essentially what the old thread was as well, but because it was sort of benign, I thought it was harmless. My objection is that the whole underlying kudos system is meaningless (which is the real point I am making that Arch glazed over in his over simplification) because nothing productive comes of it. We say, "nice transaction" and then the "benefit" is supposedly that newbies can come on and say "hey! this guy must be okay to deal with because he has several people who say they had a good experience." And I concede that there's "some" benefit in that. Just not a whole lot.

The whole problem is that there's too much interference and "fixing" from a body that said they didn't want to do that. The change being instituted merely complicates an already useless system. Kudos was meaningless. It's now equally as useless as before, only now people have an incentive to make it even more meaningless because people will want to be "positive" in the volume of the feedback whether warranted or not to boost their own.

If you're going to really have an honest feedback system, allow people to post both negative and positive comments in people's threads. Not just "kudos". The probation list is for the "really bad" but instead of meaningless stuff that gives little credible information, let's have a totally honest feedback option -- I'd be curious how many people would like to see that.

If you're going to really have an honest feedback system, allow people to post both negative and positive comments in people's threads. Not just "kudos". The probation list is for the "really bad" but instead of meaningless stuff that gives little credible information, let's have a totally honest feedback option -- I'd be curious how many people would like to see that.

Well, I'd be happy with it. The more information, the better as far as I'm concerned.

How do people address other issues?

Yes we post great shipping and customer service and other things in the kudos thread.

 

But what about the other things?

 

What if we don't agree with the grading? (OBVIOUS overgrading, etc), or the packing was inadequate or other things? How can tis be addressed without hurt feelings or flame wars?

 

Negative comments or kudos are not addressed in the Probation Area, unless you are placed on the List or the HOS.

 

We wont see things like:

 

(Seller Kudos)

"positives - djpinkpanther67 packed the books adequately and was expeditous with the shipping

needs improvement - sometimes overgrades his books - especially FFs"

 

Or

(Buyer Kudos)

"Positives - djpinkpanther67 is great to do business with. Great communication and makes payments in a timely manner

Needs improvement - Generally will only do time payments"

 

DO we just handle this via PM so not to embarrass the Seller?

 

Just a thought

 

 

I was not wild about a change at first, because I was not terribly unhappy with the other thread, it was as much as I needed...but I do like this better now that I see it.

 

As for what you are describing...Well, if you were not that happy, don't leave anything. If you got something horrid and you couldn't get your trading partner to make it right, that belongs in the probation discussion thread...but not every transaction deserves kudos...

 

It's not like telling your kid that "WOW, you got a 70 on that test, YOU are the BEST! " A

kudo" should be praise. You don't have to praise every transaction or document every one.

 

Just how I would view it...:shrug:

 

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless. Which is essentially what the old thread was as well, but because it was sort of benign, I thought it was harmless. My objection is that the whole underlying kudos system is meaningless (which is the real point I am making that Arch glazed over in his over simplification) because nothing productive comes of it. We say, "nice transaction" and then the "benefit" is supposedly that newbies can come on and say "hey! this guy must be okay to deal with because he has several people who say they had a good experience." And I concede that there's "some" benefit in that. Just not a whole lot.

 

The whole problem is that there's too much interference and "fixing" from a body that said they didn't want to do that. The change being instituted merely complicates an already useless system. Kudos was meaningless. It's now equally as useless as before, only now people have an incentive to make it even more meaningless because people will want to be "positive" in the volume of the feedback whether warranted or not to boost their own.

 

If you're going to really have an honest feedback system, allow people to post both negative and positive comments in people's threads. Not just "kudos". The probation list is for the "really bad" but instead of meaningless stuff that gives little credible information, let's have a totally honest feedback option -- I'd be curious how many people would like to see that.

Do you really think that would work? You started an "honest thread" about dealers. You wanted it to be positive, so you didn't want negatives. How much different is this?

There were certainly people mentioned in that honest dealer's thread that I would personally avoid...but other people love them.

How different would this be?

There is nothing to stop a prudent person from asking for more detail, it's just a starting point.

How do people address other issues?

Yes we post great shipping and customer service and other things in the kudos thread.

 

But what about the other things?

 

What if we don't agree with the grading? (OBVIOUS overgrading, etc), or the packing was inadequate or other things? How can tis be addressed without hurt feelings or flame wars?

 

Negative comments or kudos are not addressed in the Probation Area, unless you are placed on the List or the HOS.

 

We wont see things like:

 

(Seller Kudos)

"positives - djpinkpanther67 packed the books adequately and was expeditous with the shipping

needs improvement - sometimes overgrades his books - especially FFs"

 

Or

(Buyer Kudos)

"Positives - djpinkpanther67 is great to do business with. Great communication and makes payments in a timely manner

Needs improvement - Generally will only do time payments"

 

DO we just handle this via PM so not to embarrass the Seller?

 

Just a thought

 

 

I was not wild about a change at first, because I was not terribly unhappy with the other thread, it was as much as I needed...but I do like this better now that I see it.

 

As for what you are describing...Well, if you were not that happy, don't leave anything. If you got something horrid and you couldn't get your trading partner to make it right, that belongs in the probation discussion thread...but not every transaction deserves kudos...

 

It's not like telling your kid that "WOW, you got a 70 on that test, YOU are the BEST! " A

kudo" should be praise. You don't have to praise every transaction or document every one.

 

Just how I would view it...:shrug:

 

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless. Which is essentially what the old thread was as well, but because it was sort of benign, I thought it was harmless. My objection is that the whole underlying kudos system is meaningless (which is the real point I am making that Arch glazed over in his over simplification) because nothing productive comes of it. We say, "nice transaction" and then the "benefit" is supposedly that newbies can come on and say "hey! this guy must be okay to deal with because he has several people who say they had a good experience." And I concede that there's "some" benefit in that. Just not a whole lot.

 

The whole problem is that there's too much interference and "fixing" from a body that said they didn't want to do that. The change being instituted merely complicates an already useless system. Kudos was meaningless. It's now equally as useless as before, only now people have an incentive to make it even more meaningless because people will want to be "positive" in the volume of the feedback whether warranted or not to boost their own.

 

If you're going to really have an honest feedback system, allow people to post both negative and positive comments in people's threads. Not just "kudos". The probation list is for the "really bad" but instead of meaningless stuff that gives little credible information, let's have a totally honest feedback option -- I'd be curious how many people would like to see that.

 

Do you really think that would work? You started an "honest thread" about dealers. You wanted it to be positive, so you didn't want negatives. How much different is this?

 

There were certainly people mentioned in that honest dealer's thread that I would personally avoid...but other people love them.

 

How different would this be?

 

There is nothing to stop a prudent person from asking for more detail, it's just a starting point.

 

1) yes.

2) I was specifically positive because most people want to mud sling -- but honesty included honest answers to tough questions. Negatives were fine so long as grounded in fact.

3) It's not different. Answer tough questions and give honest feedback. Do the same thing.

4) You want to give the most useful information, let's just put it all out there.

I don't think the posts in that thread were all that different from what you are describing here. There were lots of backs scratched.

That was my point.

If I didn't explain myself adequately, that was what I meant. I know you didn't start it that way, and you don't try to do that...but it happened.

There are certain people who want to...pardon this expression..."Suck up to certain people" and that is how they play.

Some people given the chance will nit pick things to death and upset people over what was really an OK, just not Kudos worthy transaction.

Nothing is perfect...I just don't see this as being such a bad way to start.

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless.

I totally agree with Brian. This is a relatively small community, almost a good old boys club, and all I am seeing is the same members leaving mutually beneficial kudos to the same members. The kudos threads have nothing substantial in them.

Justified or not someone leaves a negative and it gets pulled ? I want to read about the bad incidents but I suspect most are afraid to leave them.

How do people address other issues?

Yes we post great shipping and customer service and other things in the kudos thread.

 

But what about the other things?

 

What if we don't agree with the grading? (OBVIOUS overgrading, etc), or the packing was inadequate or other things? How can tis be addressed without hurt feelings or flame wars?

 

Negative comments or kudos are not addressed in the Probation Area, unless you are placed on the List or the HOS.

 

We wont see things like:

 

(Seller Kudos)

"positives - djpinkpanther67 packed the books adequately and was expeditous with the shipping

needs improvement - sometimes overgrades his books - especially FFs"

 

Or

(Buyer Kudos)

"Positives - djpinkpanther67 is great to do business with. Great communication and makes payments in a timely manner

Needs improvement - Generally will only do time payments"

 

DO we just handle this via PM so not to embarrass the Seller?

 

Just a thought

 

 

I was not wild about a change at first, because I was not terribly unhappy with the other thread, it was as much as I needed...but I do like this better now that I see it.

 

As for what you are describing...Well, if you were not that happy, don't leave anything. If you got something horrid and you couldn't get your trading partner to make it right, that belongs in the probation discussion thread...but not every transaction deserves kudos...

 

It's not like telling your kid that "WOW, you got a 70 on that test, YOU are the BEST! " A

kudo" should be praise. You don't have to praise every transaction or document every one.

 

Just how I would view it...:shrug:

 

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless. Which is essentially what the old thread was as well, but because it was sort of benign, I thought it was harmless. My objection is that the whole underlying kudos system is meaningless (which is the real point I am making that Arch glazed over in his over simplification) because nothing productive comes of it. We say, "nice transaction" and then the "benefit" is supposedly that newbies can come on and say "hey! this guy must be okay to deal with because he has several people who say they had a good experience." And I concede that there's "some" benefit in that. Just not a whole lot.

 

The whole problem is that there's too much interference and "fixing" from a body that said they didn't want to do that. The change being instituted merely complicates an already useless system. Kudos was meaningless. It's now equally as useless as before, only now people have an incentive to make it even more meaningless because people will want to be "positive" in the volume of the feedback whether warranted or not to boost their own.

 

If you're going to really have an honest feedback system, allow people to post both negative and positive comments in people's threads. Not just "kudos". The probation list is for the "really bad" but instead of meaningless stuff that gives little credible information, let's have a totally honest feedback option -- I'd be curious how many people would like to see that.

I thought the whole purpose of the sales area of this Board was that it would not be Ebay. It would enable people to communicate with each other if there was a problem or disagreement. This entire board, marketplace included, is supposed to be a community.

I don't see the community benefit of taking the human element of communication out of transactions by structuring a feedback system that will end up being just like Ebay.

There have been plenty of times on these boards where someone had a hissy fit over something real or imagined in a transaction and proceeded to start a thread about it in general or even in the discussion thread instead of trying to work it out with the other party. I believe that if people are allowed to post both negative and positive feedback in these threads it will discourage people from actually contacting each other to work out any problems.

Either way that you look at the feedback threads, there is no doubt they will be a popularity contest.

I personally believe the kudos thread and the probation threads were enough. It forced people into being responsible enough to actually communicate with one another. Having specific kudos threads, which I feel will eventually evolve into a feedback system just like Ebay, enables people to forgo the communication part and move right on into slamming people.

Yes, the probation list has a decent amount of people on it and yes there have been some large transgressions but in the overall scheme of things what is the percentage of transactions that go bad? How many transactions are there per day on this site? 100? 1000? 10000?

I personally don't think there is a need to go overboard at this point with regulating the sales forum and expanding the feedback. I don't have an issue with popping through the old kudos thread to see recommendations about members. I also don't have an issue personally with avoiding some of the new sellers until they have established themselves even if it means missing out on a great deal. As the old saying goes, if it looks too good to be true...

Sorry for the long post but I do agree with Brian in that I don't think the new individual threads for feedback are necessary and I believe that they will eventually end up just like Ebay with both positive and negative comments. I think the old kudos thread and the probation threads are enough. Obviously, there are exceptions but for the most part I don't think much should be tinkered with.

[quote=skypinkblu

Well, if you were not that happy, don't leave anything. If you got something horrid and you couldn't get your trading partner to make it right, that belongs in the probation discussion thread...but not every transaction deserves kudos...

I'm sorry but this is exactly what makes the kudos threads worthless. If you are not happy with a transaction you should say so in the kudos threads. Pehaps the 'Kudos thread' should be changed 'Feedback thread'.

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless.

 

I totally agree with Brian. This is a relatively small community, almost a good old boys club, and all I am seeing is the same members leaving mutually beneficial kudos to the same members. The kudos threads have nothing substantial in them.

Justified or not someone leaves a negative and it gets pulled ? I want to read about the bad incidents but I suspect most are afraid to leave them.

I'm guessing that a possible reason people will not leave any type of negative feedback or comments is that they don't want to burn bridges. They don't want to get blackballed from buying books (kinda like a CAL's list) from that particular seller OR quite possibly a domino effect from other sellers as well who may be tight with him/her. Not everyone can handle constructive criticism or opinion, and can be vindictive on the Boards, especially when they are popular and people may rally around them whether they are right or wrong.

1. We did not post negatives on the old Kudos thread, it was only positive....same as these.

2. Ebay is frustrating because only a buyer can post something negative, here, ANYONE can, but in the probation discussion thread in a place where it's readily visible to all, instead of hidden in an individual thread..

I wonder a lot about telling our hosts that we don't want to be regulated...as far as I am concerned, I'm a guest. I join the society to help, but it's their board, their rules...and I think they do a very good job...(and I'm not posting this in the Arch kudos thread, I like Torchy's cloud but I'm perfectly happy;)

 

Unfortunately though, that's how the kudos works. It's more you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. Everyone is going to want to be left kudos, so they'll want to leave kudos. It's just an endless system of trying to raise their post counts to the extent that the kudos becomes meaningless.

 

I totally agree with Brian. This is a relatively small community, almost a good old boys club, and all I am seeing is the same members leaving mutually beneficial kudos to the same members. The kudos threads have nothing substantial in them.

Justified or not someone leaves a negative and it gets pulled ? I want to read about the bad incidents but I suspect most are afraid to leave them.

I'm guessing that a possible reason people will not leave any type of negative feedback or comments is that they don't want to burn bridges. They don't want to get blackballed from buying books (kinda like a CAL's list) from that particular seller OR quite possibly a domino effect from other sellers as well who may be tight with him/her. Not everyone can handle constructive criticism or opinion, and can be vindictive on the Boards, especially when they are popular and people may rally around them whether they are right or wrong.

Don't want to burn bridges, or some people don't want to be mean. We actually have a lot of really kind people here.

Kudos are not a guarantee, I've bought from popular people who disappointed me...common sense has to be used in all transactions.

In any case, tornado watch should be done, I'll let everyone else argue, ...there are certainly a lot of ways to view it.

PS, I was a" no" vote, I might have broken the tie, just didn't get it in ..in time;) .

1. We did not post negatives on the old Kudos thread, it was only positive....same as these.

 

2. Ebay is frustrating because only a buyer can post something negative, here, ANYONE can, but in the probation discussion thread in a place where it's readily visible to all, instead of hidden in an individual thread..

 

I wonder a lot about telling our hosts that we don't want to be regulated...as far as I am concerned, I'm a guest. I join the society to help, but it's their board, their rules...and I think they do a very good job...(and I'm not posting this in the Arch kudos thread, I like Torchy's cloud but I'm perfectly happy;)

How about each person's thread is just a poll? Or some variation of this?

People would have to be honorable to just leave Kudos as earned, not stuffing ballot boxes.

1. We did not post negatives on the old Kudos thread, it was only positive....same as these.

 

2. Ebay is frustrating because only a buyer can post something negative, here, ANYONE can, but in the probation discussion thread in a place where it's readily visible to all, instead of hidden in an individual thread..

 

I wonder a lot about telling our hosts that we don't want to be regulated...as far as I am concerned, I'm a guest. I join the society to help, but it's their board, their rules...and I think they do a very good job...(and I'm not posting this in the Arch kudos thread, I like Torchy's cloud but I'm perfectly happy;)

1. I know, but already in this thread the discussion has started to lean towards including negatives in the individual threads as well. As much as I disagree with having the individual threads in the first place, i think if you have them at all they should have the negatives included.

2. I think once you allow negatives in the individual threads is when it becomes like Ebay; hidden and impersonal. The probation thread is perfect as it is. I think it encourages both parties to work it out and only the more egregious cases warrant the probation thread. There have been a decent amount of issues solved around here just by bringing them up in the probation discussion thread.

I think our hosts do a good job as well. I think adding this forum and these threads, in a round about way, implies they are involved in the transactions around here. I think this makes things more complicated than they need to be.

I just think that having individual kudos threads will lead to including negative feedback which will eliminate communication which will lead to Ebay lite without all the fees.

Yes, that is a horrendous sentence and English teachers everywhere are weeping.

 

If you're going to really have an honest feedback system, allow people to post both negative and positive comments in people's threads. Not just "kudos". The probation list is for the "really bad" but instead of meaningless stuff that gives little credible information, let's have a totally honest feedback option -- I'd be curious how many people would like to see that.