PROBATION DISCUSSIONS

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I would also like to speak on Adams behalf.

 

I spent approximately $550.00 on 2 GA All-Stars with Adam. We made arrangements for time payments. I figured it would be no sweat, and we proceeded with the transaction. Well no less than 3 weeks later I lost my job. I had to delay on payments, had other issues. And not 1 single time did Adam make me uncomfortable. It took alot longer than I had hoped, but I finally finished the transaction after awhile. I kept in contact, sent payment when I could and let him know I was doing what I could. In the end, he received his money and I got my books.

 

I met him this year, and the guy is as nice a guy you could hope to meet. We had some good conversation, and everything ends with a happy ending.

In the end. I have to say Thank You Adam. You are one of the nicest and most reasonable people in this hobby, and I have my grail because of your understanding.

 

So to hear someone did this, I am a bit surprised..

I was with you until this bolded part...

Seriously though, it's not cool that Filter had problems just because he's a nice guy. Way to take advantage of a cool resource for cool books, TFL! Ruin it for the rest of us why don't you?

I trust that a response is forthcoming . . .

 

No doubt. If my experiences with TFL to date are any indication, he will log on any time now, refuse to take any responsibility for his actions in this transaction and try to figure out a way to place all the blame for his actions on me. He'll probably say that even though I didn't get paid once for this book in over 5 months despite multiple promises, that if we hadn't gotten into a disagreement a few weeks ago I'd somehow magically be paid in full right now.

 

Fortunately I still have most of the PMs back and forth. I won't be posting them publicly at the moment out of respect to TFL since he mentions some personal things about his family in several. But I have them available if you need to see them for the probation list.

Sorry to hear this.

What I don't understand is why TFL was permitted to purchase an Avengers 4 from you while this 25K debt was still outstanding.

I trust that a response is forthcoming . . .

 

No doubt. If my experiences with TFL to date are any indication, he will log on any time now, refuse to take any responsibility for his actions in this transaction and try to figure out a way to place all the blame for his actions on me. He'll probably say that even though I didn't get paid once for this book in over 5 months despite multiple promises, that if we hadn't gotten into a disagreement a few weeks ago I'd somehow magically be paid in full right now.

 

Fortunately I still have most of the PMs back and forth. I won't be posting them publicly at the moment out of respect to TFL since he mentions some personal things about his family in several. But I have them available if you need to see them for the probation list.

 

Sorry to hear this.

 

 

What I don't understand is why TFL was permitted to purchase an Avengers 4 from you while this 25K debt was still outstanding.

The Avengers 4 was purchased back in December in the same sales thread as the Torch. It just wasn't paid for until May. At first both books were supposed to start being paid for in December. The argument we got into a few weeks ago centered around whether or not the Avengers 4 should be shipped even though i still had not been paid anything towards the more expensive of the two books. I decided to ship him the Avengers 4 anyway knowing I was going to get stiffed on the Torch.

First off I didn't know I was on the probation thread. So here we go. I posted the

on an Avengers 4 first. Later on I posted the on the Human Torch 1.

I admit to not making the payments as per I had hoped to do. My wife was having a rough go of things with her MS. That was and always be my concern. Family over comics any day of the week.

My wife started to feel better after a long, tough bit of time. Then my mom who just recently lost her husband, my father, got sick. An operation she had ended up with some complications. That took a bit of time. Adam was understanding. So for what it is worth, thanks.

So after things with my personal life calmed down and got better. I was able to give the comics the attention they deserved. I immediaetly started paying for the Avengers 4. I had it paid off in a fairly fast manner. Not including the time that my family took from me. If anyone thinks that comics are more important than comics. Then that is on them, not me.

I PM Adam asking when I will be getting the Avengers 4. It is paid for in full. After some time, I hear back from Adam. He has decided to hold onto the fully paid for Avengers 4 until I send him some money for the HT1.

BTW. I had 16 months to pay for the HT 1. Time payments were set. 16 month's.

After some PM's. It is clear to me Adam will not be shipping the book. He sends me a few PM's saying and I am paraphrasing here. "At no time did we have an agreement for me to pay for the book in 16 months time". I can get the exact PM quote if need be.

He tried to use Coercion on me IMHO by holding onto the Avengers 4 IMHO.. That was the straw that broke the camels back as the old saying goes. If he would of sent me the Avengers 4 after receiving full payment for the book. This thread would not be happening. I did have 16 months to pay for the book don't forget. While I can see his concern about payment. I did indeed start payments and completed the payments on the Avengers 4. Within the specified time frame we had arranged.

So having a week or so before I wouldn't be able to file a claim with Pay Pal for non delivery of the book. I started a file/dispute with them. I was sent a PM by Adam saying that and again I am paraphrasing " It was a poor business decision on my part".

I guess having the claim/dispute filed got Adam to re think his holding onto the Avengers 4 as a type of guarantee that I would be paying for the HT 1.

The book was sent next day delivery to me, Finally.

Adam also sent other proposals as what he should think should happen. All of which had me loosing $1,000 or there about's. I have all these proposals saved. All of these were sent well within the 16 months.

I Pm'd him back asking what the time payments were for then. He didn't respond.

He also came up with a offer to simply end the deal. He keeps $1,000 of the money I sent him. I can have back the balance. You can imagine what my reply was. Keep in mind that both parties while upset, were professional and fairly courteous to each other via these PM's.

To make sure I was within the agreement. I asked a few on these boards for there opinions. I WILL NOT say who they are. I told them I wouldn't and I wont. If they choose to respond to this, so be it. As of this response by me. The 16 month deadline is nowhere near. The one's I asked agreed that while Adam did have a concern about the payments. I was well within the 16 months. Plus they agreed he had no right to hold onto the other book that was paid for In Full. I will post some of his replies to me as well. Especially his "we had no deal for me to buy the book by 16 months time" statement.

If some of you think I am wrong in this matter, so be it. I do not think I am. Using Coercion IMHO was the straw that was simply to much for me... Coercion is Illegal the last time I checked..

The actual quote from Adam via PM. " At no point did we have a deal that you could pay the entire $25,000 in the 16th month if you wanted to. " I ask what are time payment for then?

He also thought/thinks that the Avengers 4 and the Human Torch 1 was one single deal/transaction. It is obvious that they are two totally different and independent transactions. Different books. different price, grade, payment arrangements. Both were posted at two different times as well. It was not a "these two book's" type of deal.

That is what transpired here. No screaming, yelling type of PM's. After the one deal was completed fully. He decided to hold onto that book to try and force me to send him a payment for the Human Torch 1. Coercion comes to mind. IMHO

Concerns he may of had. Sure I will agree with that. The timing of the personal issues was indeed horrible. But I can't control that. But I did make the first deal happen within the set guide lines. I would of kept the second deal going as well. But he decided to call it 1{one} transaction and hold the book I had bought and paid for in full.

He also tried to get me to pay for his decision making process. I had no clue he had a partner on the book. I had no clue he bought his partner out on the book either. Yet he wanted me to pay the interest for the "money advance" he got from his C.C. to pay his partner off. All of which I have in PM sent by him. Sorry but that was his doing, not mine. I wont pay for his business decisions. Be they good, bad, or indifferent.

That's it folks. Debate, name call. make good or bad remarks. If I feel the need to post again I will. His thinking that if he held onto the Avengers 4would get me to send him money was Ill Fated from the start. 16{sixteen} months to pay for the book. After his attempted holding of the book and the after math of that. This is the end result.

All of this and he said I could still uyt books from him. Payment then get whatever it is I was/could be buying. That isn't going to happen.

As Stan Lee would say 'Nuff Said... For now anyway..

The actual quote from Adam via PM. " At no point did we have a deal that you could pay the entire $25,000 in the 16th month if you wanted to. " I ask what are time payment for then?

So you think "time payments" means that you could wait the entire 16 months before paying anything?

/boggle

Agreed, time payments, means, you pay a little at a time, doesn't it?

He also came up with a offer to simply end the deal. He keeps $1,000 of the money I sent him. I can have back the balance. You can imagine what my reply was. Keep in mind that both parties while upset, were professional and fairly courteous to each other via these PM's.

I'm confused. How could he keep $1,000 of the money you sent him....if you never sent him any money?

Time payments are exactly that. Giving a person time to pay for whatever they are getting. Each situation is different. I had every intention of sending the payments. His holding the Avengers 4 as some type of guarantee in his mind is what got me... Very unhappy shall we say. Concerns he had? Sure I can see that. Holding onto property that is paid for in full? Property that is a totally different deal/transaction? No, I don't think so...

He thinks these two different, singular, unique deals were/are one deal, one transaction. There not!! Discuss, slam, agree, whatever....

Beyonder:

I had sent him complete and full payment for the Avengers 4. He wanted to keep 90% of that money. Then the HT 1 deal would of been dead. I told him "No Thanks" to that proposal.

He also said that I had borrowed $25K for those whatever months it was while waiting for the payments on the HT1 to commence. I laughed out loud at that comment actually. He wanted to be paid the interest on this so called "loan". Again, I said No How, No Way..

I immediaetly started paying for the Avengers 4. I had it paid off in a fairly fast manner.

I received $1100 and it took more than 5 months. If you paid for the Human Torch 1 in a similarly fast manner, I would receive payment in full in approximately 10 years from today's date.

BTW. I had 16 months to pay for the HT 1. Time payments were set. 16 month's.

After some PM's. It is clear to me Adam will not be shipping the book. He sends me a few PM's saying and I am paraphrasing here. "At no time did we have an agreement for me to pay for the book in 16 months time". I can get the exact PM quote if need be.

The exact PM is as follows. This was our agreement when you hit the "I'll take it" on the Torch 1.

"Hey Adam:

Why must you torture me so?? If you can go 16 months on the HT #1....

I would love to post the on this book. I know you will get offers.

That goes without saying... If you can't I understand. I will be be sending you

$500 for the Avengers #1 this Friday BTW. I was going to try and snag a lesser

book. But this book is just too amazing to pass up. I would send you a Down

Payment on this book in the next 2 weeks.... Terms on this book would of course

need to be written down. Etc..

That was your post to me in December of LAST YEAR.

Here's another PM of yours from January '09

"Sorry for the lack of communication. My wife has had a rough go of it with her MS

as of late. But she is doing much better. I want to re confirm your information.

I will be sending out the total price for the Avengers #4. Plus a 15% down payment

on the Human Torch #1 to you withing the next two{two}weeks."

I have four more just like this. So please don't try to tell me your excuse is that you had 16 months to pay and I was willing to wait until month 16 to receive your down payment. I feel I was too generous as it is holding this book for you for 5 months without a payment. 16 months would've been insane.

As far as your comment regarding the "straw that broke the camel's back", I'm curious what the other straws were. Up until that point I was a seller that had waited patiently for almost 6 months on a $25,000 sale that I had not been paid for. I turned down another higher sale because you told me you were still buying the book. I put out over $10,000 of my own money to hold the book for you while you continually decided not to pay me and break one promise after another. So what else caused you to reach your breaking point?

If he would of sent me the Avengers 4 after receiving full payment for the book. This thread would not be happening. I did have 16 months to pay for the book don't forget.

I call BS. If this were true I would've had my down payment in December when it was promised. (Or January when it was promised. Or February when it was promised. Or March when it was promised Or April when it was promised. Or May when it was promised. And you had 16 months to pay in FULL, not 16 months to send me a down payment. I've been completely honest in my telling of the events surrounding this transaction Joey, it would be nice if you could do the same for once.

Oh yeah. And I DID send you the Avengers 4. Shipped overnight delivery ONE business day after this disagreement occurred. And I still have no payment on the Torch.

I'll respond to the rest later, but the sheer amount of BS in your post Joey is overwhelming and I am having a tough time processing it all at once.

Time payments are exactly that. Giving a person time to pay for whatever they are getting. Each situation is different. I had every intention of sending the payments. His holding the Avengers 4 as some type of guarantee in his mind is what got me... Very unhappy shall we say. Concerns he had? Sure I can see that. Holding onto property that is paid for in full? Property that is a totally different deal/transaction? No, I don't think so...

 

He thinks these two different, singular, unique deals were/are one deal, one transaction. There not!! Discuss, slam, agree, whatever....

From his post:

TFL Bought a Human Torch 1 CGC 8.0 from me for $25,000 on 12/19/2008. The book was purchased on time payments, with a down payment due within 2 weeks and additional payments to follow. Fast forward 5 1/2 months and I have yet to receive even one cent in payment towards this comic.

Was a down payment on the book due within 2 weeks?

For the record.....I have no dog in this fight. I am just looking for clarity.

Time payments are exactly that. Giving a person time to pay for whatever they are getting. Each situation is different.

I would say that you have a rather unique definition of "time payments"; I think most people would agree that it means you make a down payment and then make periodic/monthly payments until the balance is payed (e.g. lay-a-way.)

Adam. I was told to keep this professional and I will. You have PM's, as do I. I don't really care. You held a book that was PAID FOR IN FULL. A book that was bought and paid for in a totally different, unique, singular deal. They were NEVER COMBINED, NEVER!! You in your mind decided to all of the sudden make it a one deal transaction when in total fact, THEY ARE NOT!! A six year old could be able to see theses were two different deals...

I'm supposed to hand over money to a person that is holding my property as hostage?

I don't think so. A 25K loan? That is laughable. Wanting someone else to pay for your business decisions? That only happens in the auto/banking industry...

I'm curious as well ... as pr the Dec 2008 PM that Adam posted, it seems like you yourself said:

"I would send you a Down Payment on this book in the next 2 weeks...."

and then in Jan 2009:

"I will be sending out the total price for the Avengers #4. Plus a 15% down payment

on the Human Torch #1 to you withing the next two{two}weeks."

Did you send this down payment?

Adam. I was told to keep this professional and I will. You have PM's, as do I. I don't really care. You held a book that was PAID FOR IN FULL. A book that was bought and paid for in a totally different, unique, singular deal. They were NEVER COMBINED, NEVER!! You in your mind decided to all of the sudden make it a one deal transaction when in total fact, THEY ARE NOT!! A six year old could be able to see theses were two different deals...

 

 

I'm supposed to hand over money to a person that is holding my property as hostage?

I don't think so. A 25K loan? That is laughable. Wanting someone else to pay for your business decisions? That only happens in the auto/banking industry...

For anyone interested by the way (and since I know TFL will jump in and try to spin this like its my fault rather than taking responsibility for his actions) the PM I wrote him was as follows:

Boy did you hit that nail on the head.

I'm curious as well ... as pr the Dec 2008 PM that Adam posted, it seems like you yourself said:

 

"I would send you a Down Payment on this book in the next 2 weeks...."

 

and then in Jan 2009:

 

"I will be sending out the total price for the Avengers #4. Plus a 15% down payment

on the Human Torch #1 to you withing the next two{two}weeks."

 

Did you send this down payment?

That would be about $3750 downpayment. Did that change hands? Why did you (TFL) make comicseekers reimburse you for the $20 or so that you lost out on for him backing out due to his personal problems? I just don't get the double standards...

I'm curious as well ... as pr the Dec 2008 PM that Adam posted, it seems like you yourself said:

 

"I would send you a Down Payment on this book in the next 2 weeks...."

 

and then in Jan 2009:

 

"I will be sending out the total price for the Avengers #4. Plus a 15% down payment

on the Human Torch #1 to you withing the next two{two}weeks."

 

Did you send this down payment?

 

That would be about $3750 downpayment. Did that change hands? Why did you (TFL) make comicseekers reimburse you for the $20 or so that you lost out on for him backing out due to his personal problems? I just don't get the double standards...

 

Wow, when someone even has Brian questioning a transaction, you are in troooooouuuble.

Both deals were put on a side burner. Family health issues. When those issues were done with. Immediate payments were made. I don't deny that Adam was very understanding in this regard. He was very understanding. I paid the first deal off in full. This was the first deal.

I waited to get the first book. It didn't arrive. A few post's later Adam says he wont send the first book until the second book is started. This is the second deal.

Sorry but I am not in the habit of giving people money when there holding property that is, in effect mine. Just not delivered yet.

There are no double standards. I didn't with hold sending a book that was bought and paid for IN FULL in a totally different deal/transaction.

 

He tried to use Coercion on me IMHO by holding onto the Avengers 4 IMHO..

Which is why I listed the PM word for word in my earlier post. So that people could see that the "straw that broke the camel's back" was me ASKING for you to send me a down payment that was already 5 months late. That's not coercion, thats me ASKING you to be a decent human being and follow through on your commitments.

I did indeed start payments and completed the payments on the Avengers 4. Within the specified time frame we had arranged.

Actually you didnt. Not really. You made several promises regarding the Avengers 4 that you also did not follow through on. But I suppose your argument is that since you ultimately did end up paying for a $1000 book you should be let off the hook for the $25,000 book you didn't pay for?

So having a week or so before I wouldn't be able to file a claim with Pay Pal for non delivery of the book. I started a file/dispute with them. I was sent a PM by Adam saying that and again I am paraphrasing " It was a poor business decision on my part".

 

I guess having the claim/dispute filed got Adam to re think his holding onto the Avengers 4 as a type of guarantee that I would be paying for the HT 1.

The book was sent next day delivery to me, Finally.

Yes. Finally. Finally, first thing monday morning after debating this with you over the weekend. What a long wait you had.

I remember the Paypal dispute well. I sent you a PM while this was going on offering to return your full $1100 on the Avengers 4 but asking how you were going to settle up with me now that you were no longer buying the Torch. Your response was to open up a Paypal dispute.

Thats when I finally knew exactly the kind of person I was dealing with. And thats when I decided it might even be worth the loss I was going to take on the Torch 1 never to have to communicate with you again.

But let me be real clear on one thing. I was on the phone with Paypal the day you initiated the chargeback. I explained the entire situation to a paypal supervisor who told me plain as day, all I had to do was send you SOMETHING. It could be a bill for the $25,000 you still owed me. It could've been a contract for you to sign. Then I could enter the tracking number into Paypal (with a note saying what was in the package, not in an attempt to do anything dishonest) and the dispute would've been immediately released. My decision to send you the book was because I decided I didn't want there to be any doubt that I did right by the person that I knew was not going to do right by me. At no point were any consequences with Paypal even an issue.

I laughed out loud at that comment actually. He wanted to be paid the interest on this so called "loan".

I'm glad you thought it was so funny that I thought I had a right to ASK to be made PARTIALLY whole for everything i'm out in this transaction. Care to explain these comments you made recently then? I guess its only funny when you're not the one that is out money.

A little bit of hypocracy?

Anyway, I've said my peace. I don't have any interest in debating this with you any further Joey. I know I'm right. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm sure anyone reading this will be able to see your opinion for exactly what it is.

Adam. I was told to keep this professional and I will. You have PM's, as do I. I don't really care. You held a book that was PAID FOR IN FULL. A book that was bought and paid for in a totally different, unique, singular deal. They were NEVER COMBINED, NEVER!! You in your mind decided to all of the sudden make it a one deal transaction when in total fact, THEY ARE NOT!! A six year old could be able to see theses were two different deals...

The last time I checked, and it wasn't that long ago. Coercion is illegal!!!

You raised a concern about comicseekers failure to pay and demanded compensation for the money you were out yet don't think you were responsible for any of Adam's costs or aggravation? The only difference was the amount of money involved.

5 months without payment of any type on a $25000 book despite repeated promises to send a downpayment and a binding contract.

I'm curious as well ... as pr the Dec 2008 PM that Adam posted, it seems like you yourself said:

 

"I would send you a Down Payment on this book in the next 2 weeks...."

 

and then in Jan 2009:

 

"I will be sending out the total price for the Avengers #4. Plus a 15% down payment

on the Human Torch #1 to you withing the next two{two}weeks."

 

Did you send this down payment?

 

That would be about $3750 downpayment. Did that change hands? Why did you (TFL) make comicseekers reimburse you for the $20 or so that you lost out on for him backing out due to his personal problems? I just don't get the double standards...

 

folks, it is really plain and simple...this TFL made multiple statements that he would send payments/down payments for the HT and BROKE every one of them (from Dec all the way to May)...

after 5 months, TFL did pay the Avengers 1, and I can see adam's point, at this point in time, he knew he was getting stiffed on the HT 1... human nature would be to want to hold the avengers as leverage...but, he quickly (unlike TFL's definition of quick=5months, adam's quickly (within 2 days) decided he would honor the payment on the avg 1 and shipped it overnight...before he did though, he told me that this TFL was going to stiff him/use this as an excuse to not honor his deal...and sure enough, he did

TFL is trying to use a poor excuse, and should be put on the probation list, plain and simple... spin it anyway you want, you took advantage of the situation and then used adam's genuine concern over your lack of payments on the HT, to get out of paying for a book you had adam hold for you for 5+ months, and that adam lost another potential sale on...

and, I find if ethically laughable that you, TFL, would extort $20 from another member, and then not see you did the same thing to adam on a MUCH larger scale...