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#2889704 - 01/21/09 07:13 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: DrWatson]
COI Offline

I would like to issue a formal apology to myself for allowing myself to inflict this thread on myself.

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Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 16941
Loc: Tired and afraid
 Originally Posted By: DrWatson
 Originally Posted By: The Resurrection
My statements were based off of if the buyers had more knowledge when buying raw.

How much more knowledge does someone need? All the knowledge in the world is at anyone's fingertips 24/7. Anyone interested in pressing, trimming, restoration, the Network of Disclosure, scanners for slabs, GPA, Danny Dupcak, auction houses and who sucks on eBay can find all of that here on the Internet.

I have performed several web searches and almost always a thread from this message board returns in the search results. Anyone who claims ignorance is nothing but lazy.

I have read page after page on trimming and I can't detect trimming on the level of Ewert or Dad & Son (DrDisclosure in his latest incarnation). I certainly couldn't do it at a convention. Hell, I have seen board members buy comics with rusty staples from Dave Kapelka after being told while standing on the convention floor to be sure and check his stuff for rusty staples.

I guess my point is that anyone who expects 100% perfection better get ready to be disappointed. Nothing or no one is infallible, certainly not myself.


If I were to judge based on the price disparities realized between grades, I would suggest that this concept isn't widely grasped.

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#2889710 - 01/21/09 07:19 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: awe4one]
COI Offline

I would like to issue a formal apology to myself for allowing myself to inflict this thread on myself.

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Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 16941
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 Originally Posted By: awe4one
 Originally Posted By: nik
There is no debate that trimming is pure destruction of a book, and I don't believe for a minute that it will ever be in the same planet as pressing.


I hope you're right, Nik...

Jim


Conceptually speaking, I'm still having trouble seeing the difference between micro-trimming and pressing. Both are hard, if not impossible to detect, both are done in some form during the manufacturing process, and both are used in a manipulative manner in order to bolster the value of the books they're being done to. So other than the stigma, which is really just a matter of perception, I don't see how they're soooo different. Maybe I'm just a little too slow on the uptake. \(shrug\)

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#2889717 - 01/21/09 07:21 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: awe4one]
MCMiles Offline
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Registered: 02/17/06
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 Originally Posted By: awe4one
 Originally Posted By: Ghost_Town
 Originally Posted By: awe4one
Go back to one of the trimming threads...there were a few who didn't mind owning trimmed comics...

Jim

Maybe there's somebody who doesn't mind a owning trimmed book if they pay a "restored" price for it. But show me one person who would be happy with a trimmed book if they paid the "non-restored" price for it.


If it can't be detected then ignorance is bliss...

People certainly would not want a trimmed comic, or pressed for that matter if they feel as I do, but if the idea that we can't be certain that trimming is caught even 90% of the time, is perpetuated throughout the hobby then I fear it will become like pressing has...an acceptable threat when buying slabs. What I don't know won't hurt me kind of thing...

Jim


Pressing is not an acceptable threat. To only a few is it a threat at all. Pressing is an acceptable practice. In fact, most people with any sort of intellect have made an educated decision for themselves how they feel about pressed books. Most have the capablity to determine the expansive difference between pressing and trimming.

Sure pressing has probably become rampant because of the large potential to make money, but it was definitely not accepted because of a "what I don't know can't hurt me" attitude. To assume that even the most evil, money hungry pressers would accept trimming is ridiculous. More so, to assume that collectors of any age, or grade, of books would accept it for any reason other than to obtain a normally monetarilly out of reach key is absurd.

Again, most people have the brain capacity to assign a quantitative degree acceptance to different practices of "manipulation", and pressing hasn't received the stigmata that some wish it would. Trimming has and always will have a high degree of dislike.

Yes this is off topic, but this assumption that people will just blow off trimming as acceptable in any way at all is ridiculous. I also feel as though it is a lame attempt to go back to the "pressing is only acceptable because of money" argument.

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#2889720 - 01/21/09 07:25 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: MCMiles]
COI Offline

I would like to issue a formal apology to myself for allowing myself to inflict this thread on myself.

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Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 16941
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 Originally Posted By: MCMiles
 Originally Posted By: awe4one
 Originally Posted By: Ghost_Town
 Originally Posted By: awe4one
Go back to one of the trimming threads...there were a few who didn't mind owning trimmed comics...

Jim

Maybe there's somebody who doesn't mind a owning trimmed book if they pay a "restored" price for it. But show me one person who would be happy with a trimmed book if they paid the "non-restored" price for it.


If it can't be detected then ignorance is bliss...

People certainly would not want a trimmed comic, or pressed for that matter if they feel as I do, but if the idea that we can't be certain that trimming is caught even 90% of the time, is perpetuated throughout the hobby then I fear it will become like pressing has...an acceptable threat when buying slabs. What I don't know won't hurt me kind of thing...

Jim


Pressing is not an acceptable threat. To only a few is it a threat at all. Pressing is an acceptable practice. In fact, most people with any sort of intellect have made an educated decision for themselves how they feel about pressed books. Most have the capablity to determine the expansive difference between pressing and trimming.

Sure pressing has probably become rampant because of the large potential to make money, but it was definitely not accepted because of a "what I don't know can't hurt me" attitude. To assume that even the most evil, money hungry pressers would accept trimming is ridiculous. More so, to assume that collectors of any age, or grade, of books would accept it for any reason other than to obtain a normally monetarilly out of reach key is absurd.

Again, most people have the brain capacity to assign a quantitative degree acceptance to different practices of "manipulation", and pressing hasn't received the stigmata that some wish it would. Trimming has and always will have a high degree of dislike.

Yes this is off topic, but this assumption that people will just blow off trimming as acceptable in any way at all is ridiculous. I also feel as though it is a lame attempt to go back to the "pressing is only acceptable because of money" argument.



Mike, you have a great sense of timing considering what I posted right above you. lol

I guess I am a little slow after all.

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#2889721 - 01/21/09 07:26 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: COI]
DrWatson Offline

"What are you armed with?"
"Guess."
"Guess?"

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Registered: 06/26/06
Posts: 42704
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 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry
 Originally Posted By: DrWatson
I guess my point is that anyone who expects 100% perfection better get ready to be disappointed. Nothing or no one is infallible, certainly not myself.

If I were to judge based on the price disparities realized between grades, I would suggest that this concept isn't widely grasped.

And you would be correct. Buying a book based solely on the number in the upper left hand corner isn't always a hallmark of the most educated. That being said, I still do it from time to time, but mostly on $35 Moderns anymore.

The same could be applied to differences in page quality (white page premiums) among the same grades.
_________________________
"Time heals all heels." ~ Jane Sherwood Ace

"When in a room full of people and no one has your back; it's time to move your back." ~ Anonymous

I think that life's too short for this. I want back my ignorance and bliss. I think I've had enough of this. Blow me... one last kiss.



July 25, 2009.

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#2889727 - 01/21/09 07:32 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: DrWatson]
Murph Offline
The Post-man always rings twice. Uhm... ring ring?


Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 1651
Who has an Ewert book that has been trimmed? Break that book out of the slab, and resubmit it without noting it as an Ewert book. I'll pay $10 to help pay for the regrade, I'm sure others would pitch in. If it comes back unrestored, CGC can't reliably detect some trimmed books. If they catch it, they can. Much better method then posting a bunch of conjecture about how hard it is to detect, and how CGC can't detect trimming or the trim job Ewert did, etc. Surely someone must have one.

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#2889755 - 01/21/09 07:44 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: awe4one]
comicdonna Offline

This is what my dog thinks of your post.

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Registered: 01/07/05
Posts: 24956
Loc: The Green Mountain state!
 Originally Posted By: awe4one
Can someone come up with a rational reason why they wouldn't release the information at this juncture?

It's clear that the initial offer by CGC for reviewing Ewert slabs has failed miserably as multiple people have discovered they own potentially tainted slabs because of Brad's thorough, but I'm sure very incomplete, detective work. And they would still be in dark if it wasn't for people discovering and deciphering the slab invoice numbers and posting them on the Forum. God only knows the number of people unaware if not for that. All of this work was done without a iota of assistance from CGC...

It's time CGC stepped up to the plate because the longer they ignore the matter, the more it looks like they have something to hide...

Jim
I think CGC should have released the information before now. However, I feel somewhat confident that they are working out the details with "the head management" and possibly attorneys. After all this, I don't see how they can avoid not disclosing the info without damaging their reputation.

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#2889765 - 01/21/09 07:51 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: COI]
Spiderman-on-Tilt Offline
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Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 16813
Loc: San Diego, CA
 Originally Posted By: CaptainOfIndustry
 Originally Posted By: awe4one
 Originally Posted By: nik
There is no debate that trimming is pure destruction of a book, and I don't believe for a minute that it will ever be in the same planet as pressing.


I hope you're right, Nik...

Jim


Conceptually speaking, I'm still having trouble seeing the difference between micro-trimming and pressing. Both are hard, if not impossible to detect, both are done in some form during the manufacturing process, and both are used in a manipulative manner in order to bolster the value of the books they're being done to. So other than the stigma, which is really just a matter of perception, I don't see how they're soooo different. Maybe I'm just a little too slow on the uptake. \(shrug\)


The main difference is Trimming is taking original material away from the book as pressing does not.

I do agree when done right Micro-trimming and Pressing seem impossible to detect, especially pressing.

As for pressing you have to ask yourself what is the difference if you press a book with a machine or with a massive stack of heavy books because it would seem one in the same to obtain a manipulative goal. I understand the machine can do more but I am going on principal.

CGC will NEVER consider pressing restoration of any kind because it is too far gone in the scheme of things, but if they ever consider Trimming to not be restoration (which would NEVER happen) then JOHN would say later to the hobby.

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#2889788 - 01/21/09 07:58 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: Spiderman-on-Tilt]
Spiderman-on-Tilt Offline
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Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 16813
Loc: San Diego, CA
I feel that Jim (Doc Watson) is saying that he really trusts CGC as do I that they do perfrom the best job they can to detect Trimming or any of kind of restoration to best of their resources.

So, when I see books in Blue Label I trust that they are unrestored.

Are all books in Blue Labels supposed to be as such, well off course not.
CGC can't be perfect, but they are the best thing our hobby has ever seen and I take pride in knowing that.

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#2889803 - 01/21/09 08:05 PM Re: CGC Response on Suspected Ewert Books [Re: MCMiles]
awe4one Offline
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Registered: 07/26/02
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 Originally Posted By: MCMiles
Yes this is off topic, but this assumption that people will just blow off trimming as acceptable in any way at all is ridiculous.


If it's ever proven that a significant amount of slabs exist with trimming that was missed, people would either learn to except their slabs are tainted or get out of slabs altogether. There will be a majority that will stay and accept what they have. Has nothing to do with blowing off anything...they'll just accept a practice they dislike if they want to continue collecting...

 Quote:
I also feel as though it is a lame attempt to go back to the "pressing is only acceptable because of money" argument.


You're really stretching...I haven't even remotely mentioned this or even want this thread to go in that direction. This is a big enough problem as it is...

Jim
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