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#1936302 - 09/30/07 11:50 AM WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark
supertooth Offline

WYNTK FOUNDER

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Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 1000
Hello Folks---- As most of you know, I have been using my own coins to show how NGC will either accept or reject coins for certain potential problems.

This week's example was the one coin that NGC BB'd out of 56 MS Walkers that I had sent this year. Most of them are now in my Registry Set.

This 1945 is a beautiful coin. It was among the grouping in the old Wayte Raymond pages that I had acquired. This coin has original NT and IMHO grades higher that the other 1945 that is in my Registry Set. It also has nicer toning IMHO.

What makes this coin interesting and very educational is that, after I got it back in an NGC BB, I decided to send it as part of my submission to PCGS. It was part of my "method of madness" as I term it.



To my surprise, PCGS also BB'd the coin. Where NGC called it "Reverse Wheel Mark"---PCGS called it "Damage or Tooling---Counting Machine".



I hear cheers coming from the PCGS fans out there!! But, I am not finished yet.

Because I am a glutton for punishment, I finally sent the coin to ANACS. You guessed it. It now sits in a holder marked MS-60 details "Counting Wheel Damage".



I now think that there is a common computer linkage set up between the three TPGS. When you look at the picture of the wheel mark(s), maybe you will think like I have in this matter. What were the odds that all three services would BB this coin? Yet all three saw the coin the the same light as it were.





Unless my eyes deceive me, these are the three small wheel marks on this coin---one of the three is virtually not there at all.



I have seen terrible coins in slabs, and I certainly wouldn't own many of them that I have seen. Yet, I would buy this 1945 every time that it would be offered to me. It just goes to show what the services deem unacceptable. As I have heard from others, some "nice" coins get BB'd. This 1945 is certainly one of them.

So, what have I learned from this 1945 Walker?

1 - You can waste a few bucks trying to prove your point.

2 - The services are really tough if they see what they believe are wheel marks.

3 - The services can indeed be "fickle" about certain things that I personally do not agree with.

4 - I certainly will watch for wheel marks a little better in the future.

5 - I still like this Walker and, at least, I finally got it into a slab so it is now protected.

6 - If I had known what was to occur, I would have sent it to NCS at the beginning and had them put it into a "genuine" slab.

7 - ANACS only marks their problem coins that are of MS quality as MS-60 details. Wonder why? This MS- 65--66 Walker sure got a bum rap for a couple of wheel marks.

8 - I'd like to tell all three services that at least in this coin's situation, their policy on wheel marks leaves me puzzled.

My question to all of you---Would you BB this coin if it was up to you to decide? Opinions, please.

These continuing posts are designed to show the viewer what can happen at NGC or any other TPG. These posts are for educational purposes and NOT intended to do anything other than to present what has personally happened to me and my coins. You all have a nice day. Bob [supertooth]
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#1936402 - 09/30/07 12:23 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: supertooth]
cpm9ball Offline

At this point, I feel I should interject something of little importance in the midst of this very educational Q&A.

TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 13551
Loc: South Florida
Bob, this situation can be open to a multitude of circumstances which can be interpreted in any number of ways, and very confusing to say the least.

Consider this hypothetical situation. A pile of Morgan dollars are dumped into a counting machine, and the reeding of one coin just happens to partially imprint itself on the face of Liberty of another coin. With no other negligible marks or heavy wear, this coin is still an MS63+. Why wouldn't this be considered counting machine damage?

Where your Walker is concerned, how can they determine without the least bit of doubt that it was caused by a counting machine in the first place? Isn't it plausible that this coin, while in circulation for a very brief period of time, was casually thrown into a cash register that had metal dividers for the coin compartments and it hit the edge of the divider? There are so many objects that could have been the culprit for the damage to your coin. Why shouldn't a TPGS just note the damage and grade it accordingly?

By the way, I like it too!

Chris


Edited by cpm9ball (09/30/07 12:23 PM)
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Married: December 6, 1941
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#1936757 - 09/30/07 02:32 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: supertooth]
MarkFeld Offline
Dealer
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Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 10493
Loc: Texas
Bob, the three reverse marks in your image are not what I think of as "counting machine" or "wheel marks". And, while I haven't seen the coin in hand, I don't think that is the damage the grading companies body-bagged the coin for. Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning.

"counting machine mark
A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine where the wheel was set with insufficient spacing for the selected coin. Many coins have been subjected to counting machines – among these are Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and Saint-Gaudens double eagles."

"wheel mark
Synonymous with “counting machine mark.”"
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Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

Unless otherwise stated, the opinions I express here are my own.

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#1936780 - 09/30/07 02:48 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: MarkFeld]
Connecticoin Offline
(S)uper Collector


Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 290
Loc: Connecticut
Agree with Feld -- there appears to be a "shiny" or "smoothed" area in the middle of the eagle which caused the BB.

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#1936799 - 09/30/07 03:13 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: MarkFeld]
cpm9ball Offline

At this point, I feel I should interject something of little importance in the midst of this very educational Q&A.

TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 13551
Loc: South Florida
 Originally Posted By: MarkFeld
Bob, the three reverse marks in your image are not what I think of as "counting machine" or "wheel marks". And, while I haven't seen the coin in hand, I don't think that is the damage the grading companies body-bagged the coin for. Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning.

"counting machine mark
A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine where the wheel was set with insufficient spacing for the selected coin. Many coins have been subjected to counting machines – among these are Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and Saint-Gaudens double eagles."

"wheel mark
Synonymous with “counting machine mark.”"


Mark, could they be referring to the area to the left of "HALF DOLLAR" between 7 & 8 o'clock on the reverse?

Chris
_________________________
CHOO CHOO


"THE PERSON WHO CAN LAUGH AT HIMSELF ALWAYS LAUGHS LAST!

Joseph P. Machuga, February 28, 1915 - December 12, 1997
Frances L. Machuga, January 2, 1921 - September 29, 2006
Married: December 6, 1941
I love you, both.

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#1936823 - 09/30/07 03:29 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: cpm9ball]
MarkFeld Offline
Dealer
TOTAL NEWBIE


Registered: 09/23/02
Posts: 10493
Loc: Texas
 Originally Posted By: cpm9ball
 Originally Posted By: MarkFeld
Bob, the three reverse marks in your image are not what I think of as "counting machine" or "wheel marks". And, while I haven't seen the coin in hand, I don't think that is the damage the grading companies body-bagged the coin for. Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning.

"counting machine mark
A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine where the wheel was set with insufficient spacing for the selected coin. Many coins have been subjected to counting machines – among these are Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and Saint-Gaudens double eagles."

"wheel mark
Synonymous with “counting machine mark.”"


Mark, could they be referring to the area to the left of "HALF DOLLAR" between 7 & 8 o'clock on the reverse?

Chris
Chris, without seeing the coin in hand, I can't tell where the damage is. One area that caught my eye as a possibility however, is the lighter colored left obverse field from about 8:00 to 9:00. Perhaps that is where the wheel mark is, but it might just be the result/effect of less toning there than on the rest of that side.
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Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

Unless otherwise stated, the opinions I express here are my own.

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#1936824 - 09/30/07 03:29 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: MarkFeld]
James_EarlyUS Offline
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Registered: 09/12/03
Posts: 15418
Loc: St. Louis, MO
I agree with Mark, and it's the first thing I thought of when I saw your closeup images. Those three marks are not counting wheel marks, but are normal bagmarks. Unfortunately, from the images, I can't see the counting wheel marks. Look carefully at the rims, as sometimes, the damage shows up there, and can guide you to where on the surfaces the damage appears as well.
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#1936931 - 09/30/07 04:42 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: supertooth]
TomB Offline
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Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 11788
If this is the coin I think it is, then I have seen it in-hand at Bob's house and I think the damage that the TPGs have bagged it for is something other than the set of three marks shown. Again, I'm not certain I have seen this coin, but I strongly think I have, and my gut reaction was that there was something else about the coin that flagged it.
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#1937080 - 09/30/07 06:17 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: TomB]
supertooth Offline

WYNTK FOUNDER

Up 20 words per minute since I signed up


Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 1000
Guess I should try to explain myself a bit more about this 1945. And, yes Tom, it is the one that you saw at the house.

My first impression, when I got the coin back in the BB from NGC, was to find out what I had missed. I have learned to NOT blame the guys at NGC---I look for what BOB missed. Was especially glad that Tom was coming to the house---as I knew that I would get another opinion on the coin.

As Connecticoin has stated, I was looking for something like a 'rub' of some kind----a 'shiny' place. I did not see anything that bothered me. Like James had said---I looked again at the rims---figuring that I must have missed something there. Still didn't see anything that bothered me.

However, what I did find were those three small but definite cuts that I have shown. Was convinced that they were done by a machine---as they had that stamped look to them. Like they had been sharply struck into the coin. A definite post mintage problem in my opinion.

Also have been thinking that maybe over 60 years in that Wayte page----has camouflaged some area that is NOT apparent to me---but seems to be apparent to all three grading services? The toning seems totally NT to me---as were all the other coins in the collection. There does not appear to be any disruption to the feathers of the Eagle's breast. Therefore I had discounted a 'rub' problem.

This is why I would like the grading services to 'explain' the problem areas a little better. Wouldn't take but a few additional words of explanation. And would save the owner of the coin a lot of headaches trying to figure it out sometimes. All I knew was that NGC had said it was a "reverse" problem.

Anyway, after Tom looked at the coin, neither of us had a definite answer. Like Tom, I did not feel that I would have put it into a BB for the three small digs. We just sort of threw our hands into the air---and that was that.

My only experience with a counting machine was in a coin shop about 1978 or there abouts. I was selling thousands of wheat cents all the way up to silver dollars to help pay for an 1871CC 20 dollar gold piece that I had just purchased. As I listened to the thump--thump--thump of the machine, I could see the Morgans revolving around to enter the counting process. I remember thinking how little anyone cared about the coins. Surely was NO cotton glove treatment. Am sure that Chris would have loved to have been able to check all those Unc. 1921 Morgans for possible Vam numbers. Often wonder what I might have sold??

Mark--- Not trying to leave you out of this. Wish that I had you here with me. Maybe you could see what I have failed to see? Maybe it is that my knowledge is just not good enough in this area?? Never let it be said that I am still not willing to learn. But, whatever it is, was enough to condemn what I considered to be a really decent coin. My comment to Tom was that NGC just had to BB something. That was an unfair remark---but one of frustration on my part for not being able to see the WHY of it. I was soooo very happy with the overall results from my submissions that I didn't let it bother me at the time. After PCGS and ANACS too gave me the BB---then it was a great coin for a WYNTK thread.

Will try to get Barb to take a picture or two---with more light. Maybe that might show some glare or something? If I find out anything more, I will post additional pictures. Am very happy for the replies so far. Thanks a lot. Bob [supertooth]
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#1937168 - 09/30/07 07:06 PM Re: WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark [Re: supertooth]
jesbroken Offline
I was posting here when you were in diapers.


Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 3478
Loc: West Virginia
Bob, I have taken a great deal of flak over the last year for complaining about the TPG's not explaining fully their reasoning for BB'ing a coin. This is certainly a great example of why they should be more detailed in their explanation. I have heard all the arguments that it's not their job, they would be putting theirselves out of business by giving away their secrets!, they warned us we would be charged anyway, blah, blah, blah. My point is, as this coin shows, how could it cost them anything just to have said,"Reverse wheel mark at 8:00-rub". This would have settled the issue in your eyes and any looking at the coin. You may not agree with it but you now truly got your money's worth-you paid for something and you should get it. JMO!

By the way, beautiful coin-I love it.
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Jim


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