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#1773288 - 07/01/07 02:28 PM WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC
supertooth Offline


Up 20 words per minute since I signed up

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 1000
A couple of years ago, I told a board member friend of mine that I wanted to do a WYNTK thread on the TPGS. I felt that it was time to try and bring some facts into the light of day. My very wise friend advised me to not write about any speculation but to write about only things that I know personally to be true. So, it has taken another two years for me to gather enough information that I think may be helpful to many of you. Please remember that this is only 'my' opinion. Also note that I had informed an employee of NGC that these WYNTK threads were going to be written. Also note that I will try to look at certain facts as if I was an NGC grader looking at us collectors. What do and must they think about us? This adventure will take me a few threads. So don't expect everything that I know to be included in today's post.

Also understand that up until just recently I have been virtually unable to both take and post pictures on the boards. This is because I am a dumb computer person and unwilling to deal with the darn thing. Finally, with the new digital camera, my wife is now able to both take reasonable pictures and put them onto threads. To Barb I give a big "Thank You" for making my life easier in this regard. To all of you who have encouraged me, I also want to give my thanks.

It's been over four years ago now since I sent my first six half dollar coins to NGC to be graded. Over that period of time I have sent in over a hundred Walkers---plus many other coins. Currently I have more down in Flordia as I write this thread. Of the Walker number sent, they come down to this---about 55% have been MS coins and 45% have been mostly "early" date and mint XF-AU coins. So far I have received six Walker BB's that I can remember. My percentage slab rate for Walkers is about 95% successful.

What I'd like to do over the next several months is try to show why coins are rejected at NGC. WiIl show all of you what I know to be true, using my own coins as examples. I hope to show why, in the vast majority of cases, that the NGC graders are correct. I also want to try to give you a perspective of what I feel it must be like from their (NGC's) side of the fence. What they must think about us collectors. People learn by example, so let's start out with a fan favorite the 1921D Walker.

As most of you know the 21D is very hard to obtain in grades above a Fine 12. In fact, finding a really nice Fine coin can be a problem if you want an "original patina" coin. My first example of a "rejected" NGC coin is this 21D pictured above. When I bought it, it resided in an ANACS holder graded Fine 12. It was a Buy It Now purchase on eBay for $350. Well, it took me all of 10 seconds to buy it. Couldn't push the computer buttons fast enough. Anyone who knows Walkers could and can see that the coin has a technical grade of F15. The color looked good to me. I had a bargain from what I could tell. Got the coin, was pleased with it, left positive feedback and proceeded to take it to a Baltimore coin show in the ANACS Fine 12 holder. Saw David Lange at the NGC table. He thought the coin would cross into an NGC holder (so did I), so I paid my $55 and left it with another coin---a raw 1889 CC Morgan.

Well, the 89 CC Morgan went into an NGC XF45 holder while the 21D came back in its ANACS slab. Now, here's the kicker. Like many of you, I felt cheated by NGC. They had to have the dumbest graders on the planet says Bob. I walked around with my loupe for days and weeks looking at the coin. And seriously, I could not find out "Why" the coin didn't cross. So, like many others, I cracked the slab and a year later sent the coin in "raw". Coin came back in another BB. So again in my mind I cussed and blah, blah, blah at NGC. They just were not right about this coin. Couldn't be. Finally, one night in bed, with the 75 watt light bulb night stand light, I had occasion to look at a coin. It struck me then to go get the 21D out of the safe. For the first time, I saw the very fine scratch line that ran across the obverse of the coin. In truth, I could not believe it. For almost two years I had looked at this 21D Walker---trying to find out what was wrong with it---and in 10 seconds under that night stand light I finally knew why it had been BB.
I had finally tilted the coin just right and, under that kind of light, had seen what I had been striving to find out for about two years. So, for just this one collector, I had to admit that Bob was wrong and the NGC graders were right. The coin now sits in my raw VF set of Walkers---looks great there---fits in well color-wise---as the first pictures show the true color of the coin[ not the scanner pictures]. You be the judge as to whether it is worth the approximately $450 that I now have in the coin. Now look at these 'scanner' pictures of the same 1921D Walker. Can you see the faint horizontal hairlines above the motto of "In God We Trust"?

Whether these faint hairlines came as 'slide marks' from plastic from an old album----or a jeweler's cloth---or from an old pair of woolen pockets in some ancient wool pants---what does it matter? They ARE there. There are actually still one or two more higher up on the coin---that still doesn't show on the scanner picture. So, what did I learn from this experience??

1---- Pictures cannot be trusted.
2---- If you get a BB at NGC, look for WHY you got it. Do not think that they are wrong. Try to figure out WHY YOU ARE WRONG
3---- Realize that we all are still learning----we ALL miss things---we ALL are not right 100% of the time.
4---- This coin was fine color wise---looked good under natural light. The hairlines could NOT be seen with the naked eye. To me, they could not be seen with a loupe. Tilting the coin at a hundred different angles MAY be required to find certain hairlines---or other problems.
5---- I still very much like this coin. It sits in this set because I want the coin there. To me those lines are part of the things that happen to a coin of that grade over these 86 years since it was struck. I'm not upset that I have 450 into this coin.
6---- ANACS had probably also seen those lines---which was why the grade on their holder was only a fine12 and not a fine15.
7---- Look how much better I am now---than 4 years ago. It is like a night vs. day change in what I know now compared to just a few years ago.
8---- NGC "NEVER" defends itself on its own 'chat' boards. EVER NOTICE THAT?? Maybe it was time for someone like me---to tell the truth of how DUMB I used to be----before I got better. Maybe I should tell the boards how this collector realizes that I needed to catch up with the NGC graders in knowledge. Maybe I needed to be a little "HUMBLE". Until next time. Bob [supertooth]

#1773289 - 07/01/07 02:31 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: supertooth]
MunkyMan95 Offline

Registered: 02/27/06
Posts: 8429
Loc: Electric Avenue
VERY Nice and informative post Bob

I look forward to reading more

#1773290 - 07/01/07 02:49 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: supertooth]
WoodenJefferson Offline

I have nothing to add or subtract, I am merely here.


Registered: 12/08/06
Posts: 17783
Loc: Planted securely in my Barcalo...
I smell a Pulitzer here!

Read & Heed material.

I look forward to the next installment.

Way to Go Bob!

A well versed collector learns something new everyday.

#1773291 - 07/01/07 03:05 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: WoodenJefferson]
braddick Offline

First Official Forum Member

FACT if I stop posting, trillions and trillions of transistors would be out of work.

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 4807
I know it would take a moment or two, but it's too bad NGC couldn't have quickly scribbled why they rejected the coin. Something along the lines of a quick note tucked in with the bodybag that states, "light scratch above the motto" or whatnot.
It would have taken the guess work out of what the problem was and probably would have saved you attempting to send it in again as you did, the second time.

#1773292 - 07/01/07 03:20 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: braddick]
bsshog40 Offline

Registered: 05/09/06
Posts: 16045
Loc: Waskom,TX
I agree with Pat. As it is always nice to be able to finally recognize issues with coins that were not seen before, it would be nice if The TPG's would make a note on these BB'd coins so we aren't scratching our heads for 2 years and buying coins with the same issues without knowing it. I think it's great gaining knowledge of what is not TPG acceptable, but I think it shows a lack of respect for numismatists that spend money with TPG's, and not let them know the issues behind BB'd coins.JMO

#1773293 - 07/01/07 03:41 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: bsshog40]
jesbroken Offline
I was posting here when you were in diapers.

Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 3477
Loc: West Virginia
I agree with both Pat and Bobby regarding NGC taking the time to notate the exact reason for BBing our coins. As a matter of fact, I think it is the least they could do after taking our full fee for the grading without the cost to them of slabbing the coin. I believe this is what makes us as collectors feel belligerent towards this TPG when our coin is BB'd. When you show the coin in question to several knowledgeable people who still don't see why the coin was BB'd, it becomes a thorn in the owner's side and who else to take it out on than the TPG in question. I cannot imagine any reason they could not do this. IMHO.

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When you get what you deserve, it may not necessarily be what you paid for.
Jim Bowling

#1773294 - 07/01/07 05:44 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: jesbroken]
world colonial Offline

Registered: 08/31/06
Posts: 2495

I agree with both Pat and Bobby regarding NGC taking the time to notate the exact reason for BBing our coins. As a matter of fact, I think it is the least they could do after taking our full fee for the grading without the cost to them of slabbing the coin. I believe this is what makes us as collectors feel belligerent towards this TPG when our coin is BB'd. When you show the coin in question to several knowledgeable people who still don't see why the coin was BB'd, it becomes a thorn in the owner's side and who else to take it out on than the TPG in question. I cannot imagine any reason they could not do this. IMHO.

Well stated, I had three coins on my recent submission of 40 come back BB. One dealer is a PNG member and I specifically asked them if there was any reason they could see that the coin would be rejected. (I did this because I could not buy the coin in person.) It came back "improperly cleaned".

#1773295 - 07/01/07 06:09 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: world colonial]
DirtyGoldMan Offline
Up 20 words per minute since I signed up

Registered: 08/03/03
Posts: 1193
Excellent post, Bob. My only argument would be with all of the schlock that the TPGs do holder (AT'ed stuff, dip-n-strip specials, etc.), it seems to be rather capricious and unjustifiable not to slab a true collector coin, with a barely perceptible scratch. They could just as easily net grade the coin, as ANACS did. Without a lot of work, we could no doubt come up with pictures of coins with scratches that are much more readily apparent (ie. it does not take two years to find them) that are holdered.

Therefore, I am not arguing against your points, which are well-taken, but against the inconsistency here and ATS.

#1773296 - 07/01/07 06:49 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: DirtyGoldMan]
rbrown4 Offline
If you have a dream about out-posting me, you better wake up and apologize.

Registered: 12/04/06
Posts: 2894
Loc: Northern Virginia
Excellent idea for your post Bob. Looking forward to learning from your experiences and knowledge as well as others as a result of the topic. For me, learning about BB'd coins and the reasons for them has definitely been a learning experience. Folks in these Forums have been so helpful in many instances helping be better determine why NGC assigned what they did.

I am also hoping that we can hear some opinions or reasons as to why the TPGs do not provide more detail regarding their grading decision on BB'd coins, it would be helpful for sure.

Want List: Knowledge and Understanding. 1916 D Winged Liberty Dime, 1913 V-2 Buffalo, 1913 S V-2 Buffalo, 1918 D 8/7 Buffalo and the 1937 D 3 Legged Buffalo

#1773297 - 07/01/07 07:02 PM Re: WYNTK----Third Party Grading Services----NGC [Re: supertooth]
TomB Offline

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 11788
Good post and I think it would be wise for a TPG to give someone a heads-up as to why a coin might bag.
Posts are based on experience and are opinion only. Experiences and opinions of others may differ.

Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

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