#1056570 - 01/29/06 07:33 PM
Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
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skybolt
Pedigreed
Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 5424
Loc: Chicago, IL
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After reading these recent scandals regarding CGC and certain dealers, I'm starting to wonder how this hobby can regain the average collector's trust again.
I haven't purchased a single comic book over the past 1.5 months and may take the entire year off, unless things change drastically in this business. As I've mentioned before, I'm not in this hobby to make money, but certainly don't want to get fleeced when selling my collection years down the road. My other worry has always been having my name dragged through the mud because I somehow wound up with a tainted book and mistakingly tried to sell it. It only takes one incident to ruin a person's reputation, and I hate having to walk that tight rope with every transaction. I don't press or even resub for a higher grade, but there are other pitfalls in the hobby.
For instance, if my collection consists of certain books purchased from Metro, Four Color Comics, Superworld, Ebay seller XYZ, etc., is it proper courtesy to mention this information when listing a book on Ebay or other sites? Should we also be required to list the date of purchase, date of slabbing (if book was purcahsed raw), initial grade before resubbing, and the final grade after pressing/conserving (if this work is performed)? If you know why a book you submitted to CGC received a certain grade, should you mention the unseen spine split, interior tear, detached staple, etc., even though this information may also be in the grader's notes? I've always held the belief that unless I'm asked these specific questions directly by a potential buyer, I'd just list the CGC grade with large front and back cover scans. However, with all the recent revelations and distrust, I along with many other buyers would feel a lot more comfortable knowing the brief history of the book in their possession. At least my conscience would be clear if it was somehow revealed that the book was pressed prior to my acquisition. By providing the entire truth upfront, it would make it easier to have a bullet proof return policy as well. If in 5 years, a certain seller that you initially purchased the book from is banned from the hobby for manipulating books, then the new buyer can't blame you for not giving them this relevant information upfront.
This additional data can be listed at follows:
Book purchased from seller XYZ on 2/2/2003 as raw. Graded as 7.0 by CGC around 7/6/2003. Book resubbed without additional work, and received a grade of 7.5 around 10/5/2003. Book reholdered on 2/2/2005 because the slab was accidentally cracked, etc. I realize that this is a lot of work, so perhaps it should only be applied to books that cost more than $200/$300 (?). Would a consignment site like ComicLink allow someone to list this information with their book?
I've never been a person to start a trend, but if I see a few people providing this information upfront, then I'm certainly considering it. Since I'm taking some time off from purchasing new books, I may go back perform research and list whatever additional information I have on each of my books in a personal file. I've saved all this data on my system, but would take some effort to develop it in a spreadsheet format. At the very least, it'll give me a chance to prove how much I paid for a certain book for tax reasons. Plus, this information would be really handy if a prospective buyer does ask questions, and you don't have to spend 2 hours digging for this data.
It's unfortunate that the untrustworthiness part of the hobby has reached this critical moment, and where complete honesty seems to be the only salvation.
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#1056571 - 01/29/06 07:40 PM
Re: Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
[Re: skybolt]
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Ze-man
I offend someone, on some level, somewhere
TOTAL NEWBIE
Registered: 01/30/04
Posts: 13232
Loc: Zionsville
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In a perfect world?...yes. But sadly where I live, the world aint perfect.
One can only hope what you suggest will become the norm, rather then the exception.
For any dealer to try and build an ongoing client base based on the foundation of being as truthful as possible,even if it is to a fault(or rather possible loss of sales) is all one could ever ask for as a fan of this hobby.
But how much information surrounding any given book is a seller actually privy to?Or how much information should we expect him to provide?
Let alone how much time should a dealer spend researching each books history to qualify himself as " being upfront"?
Who knows how it will all unfold... but hey, the times they ARE indeed a changin.
Ze-
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#1056574 - 01/29/06 08:07 PM
Re: Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
[Re: Ze-man]
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scheradon
FACT if I stop posting, trillions and trillions of transistors would be out of work.
Registered: 11/02/05
Posts: 4983
Loc: Back Home Finally!
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I've actually been thinking a lot about your exact question. I have come to the conclusion that if and when I sell my collection that I will include any known history I have about the book.
I'm even thinking that I will put a little info about CGC in a paragraph explaining a little on how they make a "good faith" effort to catch restoration (but aren't perfect) and how they do not consider dry cleaning and NDP to be restoration. I will then state if any book I have has had either restoration or conservation done to my knowledge.
My toss up is, if I should post the venue/ebay seller/ or indivuidul right on the listing or if I should say in the listing something like: If anyone would like to know the purchase history of any book of mine, please ask and I will be happy to provide that for you.
I know eBay frowns on other people or sellers being mentioned directly in a listing when in a negative light, however I would see this as more a neutral light, so that's probably my biggest concern about putting names right in the listing.
You know, this makes me think about those sellers who say: "I will tell someone if a book has been pressed or cleaned if they ask". I would accept that if they put that in their listing, but many customers won't know to ask because they are unsuspecting of that. Mainly because those outside this board don't even know that cleaning and pressing is ok. I personallay bought over 10k in slabbed books before I knew it from joining these boards. I had always seen purple label books that had cleaned and pressed on them so I didn't know CGC had two distinctions of this process. I'm not a expert on these matters of Dry or Wet cleaning, NDP vs non NDP. This info isn't easy to come by unless you scour these forums (or possibly some other comic related forums) and many of the buyers out there don't.
This is why, I will disclose all the information (whether important to me or not) about any book I have that I ever sell. I believe that the trust I will gain from providing such detailed background and info, will surpass any dollar loss that info may cause. In fact, I would even garner that the fully honest seller will indeed make more per sale than others who do not provide full info.
Edited by scheradon (01/29/06 08:09 PM)
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#1056575 - 01/29/06 08:15 PM
Re: Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
[Re: skybolt]
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RCComix
Collector
Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 80
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To answer your question, I agree that in a perfect world, the answer would be yes, but as already stated, it is not a perfect world and there is too much $$$ involved for the majority of collectors to continue to purchase in the dark.
Just my opinion, but isn't this why we have our comics "certified"? For those collectors that do buy CGC graded comics, isn't the certifiction one of the major reasons why we do? CGC does more than grade, they provide a certification regarding the comic and the average collector should be able to rely on this for something. The blue label helps the average collector in many ways. The question as I see it is "what can we reasonably rely on when we see the label these days?"
Sellers may disclose or may not disclose. They may know or they may not know. Bottom line, you can't make em...The average joe needs to be able to count on something, and CGC grading and certification could be the best answer. Faith in the service seems to be eroding these days for some and the long range effect of this is a little scary.
My head is spinning these days with all the various threads discussing similar topics in various forms. If some of this doesn't make sense, I apologise in advance.
Russ
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#1056576 - 01/29/06 08:15 PM
Re: Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
[Re: skybolt]
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LearnedHand
I am gonna miss that car.
Registered: 10/24/05
Posts: 200
Loc: The Fortress of Solitude
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With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.
Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or (c) you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.
LH
_________________________
[b]Reality...what a concept[b]
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#1056577 - 01/29/06 08:32 PM
Re: Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
[Re: RCComix]
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skybolt
Pedigreed
Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 5424
Loc: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
Just my opinion, but isn't this why we have our comics "certified"? For those collectors that do buy CGC graded comics, isn't the certifiction one of the major reasons why we do? CGC does more than grade, they provide a certification regarding the comic and the average collector should be able to rely on this for something. The blue label helps the average collector in many ways. The question as I see it is "what can we reasonably rely on when we see the label these days?"
Russ
If you read my posts from about 1 year or even 2 months ago, I was saying the exact same thing you did. However, with all the recent revelations about certain BSD's and the PCS service, I'm not so sure anymore. 
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#1056579 - 01/29/06 08:43 PM
Re: Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?
[Re: LearnedHand]
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skybolt
Pedigreed
Registered: 08/20/04
Posts: 5424
Loc: Chicago, IL
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Quote:
With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.
Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.
There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or (c) you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.
LH
To answer your questions:
a.) I don't think I'd lose face if I told the truth from the time I purchased the book until the time I sold it. I'm not guarantying that the book was never pressed, but I am giving the buyer a brief history since the book was in my possession. Remember, most of the people that have been outted for wrongful doing wasn't because of what others did.
b.) I agree
c.) I agree again, but since I've always advocated that honesty is the best policy, then I better act upon it.
I definitely have to think about this scenario some more.
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